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Okay, Brandon, I get what you're saying. I really do. But the fencer scenario requires that the fencer went and "bought" and paid money for materials. This agent did not.
A better analogy would be: You call fencers for estimates. A fencer comes out, he spends some time talking to you. He drives around the neighborhood and looks at others' fences. He goes to Home Depot and he prices the fencing materials. He comes back to you and gives you his price and you say, I'm pretty good at fencing. I can help you with this fence and make your job easier if you'll take 25% off your price. The fencer has the option to say no and you have the option to say "Okay, then I won't use you," or you have the option to say, "Okay, it was worth a try," and go forward on the fence.
That is not unethical or dishonest.
Remember, commissions are all negotiable.
Whatever....the agent was wrong regardless by NAR codes. If you want to negotiate a referral fee it's supposed to be done at first contact.
Not only did the buyer take away my time, but she took away my ability to choose how much I would be paid for my service.
Everyone needs to upfront and honest. I am use to people not telling me what they would qualify for. But once they like and trust me, they share what I need to know to help them.
There are some things I expect to learn as we go along. But I would never expect a buyer to take away from me, when I am giving them all I have.
If you want to negotiate a referral fee it's supposed to be done at first contact.
It was. It was done the first day BEFORE the offer was made.
So if she had come in and said, Hi, my name is Fancy. I want to buy a house. I want you to show me houses. Is she unethical? Should she have said, "Hi, I am a realtor, I want you to show me houses"?
At what point does she disclose and NOT be unethical?
In your world, when she walks in the door. In mine, before she makes an offer.
It was. It was done the first day BEFORE the offer was made.
So if she had come in and said, Hi, my name is Fancy. I want to buy a house. I want you to show me houses. Is she unethical? Should she have said, "Hi, I am a realtor, I want you to show me houses"?
At what point does she disclose and NOT be unethical?
In your world, when she walks in the door. In mine, before she makes an offer.
In the Code of Ethics (and in many states' laws), upon first contact - when you're discussing houses and prices and such. Doesn't even have to be first physical meeting - it could be required to be done online if that's how you're interacting.
In other words, when you first start having someone work for you (and that first day IS work, if you're a practicing agent, and often involves an expenditure of funds in the way of fuel, lunches for customers, etc.).
The offer can come way down the line in some cases, months, even. Before I was an agent, when we were looking for our horse property, it took two years before we put in an offer on a place. Are you saying that it would be fine, if I'd been an agent, not to disclose that fact for two years while the agent was working for me and driving me all over creation, and then to ask for a referral fee at the point that we were about to write an offer? By your personal rules stated above, it would be.
It was. It was done the first day BEFORE the offer was made.....In your world, when she walks in the door. In mine, before she makes an offer.
Fancy, first contact is when you first meet (phone or in person or email) and not when it's time to make an offer. First contact is determined by LLR and not NAR btw so it doesn't matter if you're a Realtor or simply hold a license.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsFancyPants
So if she had come in and said, Hi, my name is Fancy. I want to buy a house. I want you to show me houses. Is she unethical? Should she have said, "Hi, I am a realtor, I want you to show me houses"?
At what point does she disclose and NOT be unethical?
No that is all fine. If you expect a referral fee it should be indicated at that time as well and that is the point of contention.
It was. It was done the first day BEFORE the offer was made.
So if she had come in and said, Hi, my name is Fancy. I want to buy a house. I want you to show me houses. Is she unethical? Should she have said, "Hi, I am a realtor, I want you to show me houses"?
At what point does she disclose and NOT be unethical?
In your world, when she walks in the door. In mine, before she makes an offer.
Yes! She needed to identify herself as a Realtor, if applicable.
Again:
From the NAR COE:
Standard of Practice 3-7 When seeking information from another REALTOR® concerning property under a management or listing agreement, REALTORS® shall disclose their REALTOR® status and whether their interest is personal or on behalf of a client and, if on behalf of a client, their representational status.
How is that confusing?
It doesn't mention offers, spending a day, fences, referral fees of any sort, agent to agent or broker to broker, or any other tangential stuff.
It mentions only "When seeking information..." That would be the point of disclosure.
The visiting agent, if indeed a Realtor, was obviously in violation of a clear ethical standard.
Perhaps getting a referral fee was determined at some point after, during the day. Perhaps she felt she was doing more of the work than she should've otherwise done or anticipated doing when she first came in? Perhaps she never intended to ask for a referral fee so she felt it wasn't necessary until she later determined that, hey, I earned a part of that commission????
I would agree with you both if she hadn't disclosed the first day. To me, first contact is the first day. Not the first moment(s).
It was. It was done the first day BEFORE the offer was made.
So if she had come in and said, Hi, my name is Fancy. I want to buy a house. I want you to show me houses. Is she unethical? Should she have said, "Hi, I am a realtor, I want you to show me houses"?
At what point does she disclose and NOT be unethical?
In your world, when she walks in the door. In mine, before she makes an offer.
If in your world the requirement to disclose comes only at the time that an offer is written, then the agent would not need to disclose that they were an agent for two years, in my scenario based on actual fact.
As for what defines first contact, I don't have to worry about what it means "in my world" because, being a former legal assistant and kind of persnickety about such things (you say you were a licensed legal assistant so you should understand that) and not wanting to put myself and my broker in a position of being sued, I got a definition of it when I started practicing. Plus, of course, it was in my legal classes originally when I took them for my license and in the recent update I took.
Last edited by Marka; 04-27-2009 at 12:37 AM..
Reason: removed orphaned quote
Yes! She needed to identify herself as a Realtor, if applicable.
Again:
From the NAR COE:
Standard of Practice 3-7 When seeking information from another REALTOR® concerning property under a management or listing agreement, REALTORS® shall disclose their REALTOR® status and whether their interest is personal or on behalf of a client and, if on behalf of a client, their representational status.
How is that confusing?
It doesn't mention offers, spending a day, fences, referral fees of any sort, agent to agent or broker to broker, or any other tangential stuff.
It mentions only "When seeking information..." That would be the point of disclosure.
The visiting agent, if indeed a Realtor, was obviously in violation of a clear ethical standard.
And it also does not specify WHEN that disclosure must be made. Whether it is within the first second, minute, hour, day...
If it's so clear, why not report her and see how clear the board thinks it is?
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