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I spent real time seriously looking in at least 10 different markets around the country where I found that Trulia was the best resource for general information about that market *except* where the listing agents were (imo) deliberately colluding to not additionally list or update listings there.
I think you see negative intent where there is none. Some of the smaller MLS's are just tech incompetent and really don't have the resources to change that without jacking up the MLS fees for the members. There is one large MLS that I am aware of that functions in the dark ages, but most of the others are just really small with few resources.
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Originally Posted by MrRational
The exclusivity of the MLS data in this day of electronic resources available to all in any number of other formats...
well, it is quickly become an anti-trust or restraint of trade issue that WILL be changing that industry soon.
The RE world is changing. It has to.
MLS data is everywhere. There isn't any exclusive data. What anti-trust gibberish are you talking about here? What are the feds going to do, force a local MLS with no financial resources to upgrade their systems just so consumers can feel that they aren't being ripped off? Most MLS's are little non-profit companies. The larger ones tend to have really good tech options and data feeds because they have a lot of member money.
While you are excited about the public sites, some MLS's are now shifting towards sellers being able to decide if they want their listings on Zillow because their zestimates are so horrendous. They are allowing sellers to opt-out in some areas. With data comes responsibility. The zestimates definitely harm some people and that isn't okay just for the sake of "open data."
I think you see negative intent where there is none.
ha!
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Some of the smaller MLS's are just tech incompetent...
Who said small? I didn't.
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There is one large MLS that I am aware of that functions in the dark ages, but most of the others are just really small with few resources.
The issue is the ADDITIONAL step of forwarding that listing info onto the outside of the MLS search engines that outsiders need and very often PREFER to use like Trulia (or redfin, zillow, etc).
Some agents get this. Some try to deny it's value and keep all to themselves.
And some try to deliberately make it impossible to get accurate information without an agent involved.
The time sensitive aspect is the even more important part. When under contract etc being updated promptly.
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MLS data is everywhere. There isn't any exclusive data.
I'm referring to the filtering features available on those other search engines that is NOT available through realtor sources.
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While you are excited about the public sites, some MLS's are now shifting towards sellers being able to decide if they want their listings on...
horse$hit
As you said the data is (mostly) out there: " There isn't any exclusive data."
There's some. Mostly at the very high end but it's there all the same.
The only question is how easily and thoroughly it can be accessed and filtered by someone NOT using a realtor.
That is where the the collusion and attempts at restraint of trade comes in.
The 1% of sellers who don't want the public data or a sign in their yard are a whole other discussion.
The issue is the ADDITIONAL step of forwarding that listing info onto the outside of the MLS search engines that outsiders need and very often PREFER to use like Trulia (or redfin, zillow, etc).
You aren't understanding how the system works. Trulia, and Zillow, et al all work off feeds. For mid sized and large MLS's there isn't an additional step. Zillow and Trulia buy the feeds and things are entered. The problem has been on the end of Zillow and Trulia and what they do with the feeds that creates problems with the real estate industry. In order to use the MLS feed there are specific rules and updating the feed is required. Trulia has been incredibly hit and miss with their updating. Drives me nuts because I have to double check every time I change a photo or do a price change to see if Trulia updated the feed.
Zillow and Trulia may pass on feeds from small MLS's due to the cost and lack of advertising dollars in play for those areas. They are business's after all. Some of the MLS's feed their data in such a way that it doesn't work well with the systems in place with those data aggregators like Zillow and Trulia.
Redfin is a real estate company so as long as they are a member of the MLS they can feed the data to their site. They aren't an aggregator like Zillow and Trulia are.
You also may not be aware that in some states home sales and such is non-public information and can't be on public sites. Nothing anti-competitive just state law restrictions. Texas is one of those states.
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Originally Posted by MrRational
Some agents get this. Some try to deny it's value and keep all to themselves.
Many older agents just don't get computers and the internet. Had an agent scanning contracts to me as a .jpg rather than .pdfs. I had to spend time converting the documents to a more appropriate format. You honestly think agents like that can handle getting on and manually updating the 100 or so websites that our data feeds into? I don't think so.
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Originally Posted by MrRational
And some try to deliberately make it impossible to get accurate information without an agent involved.
Give me a real life example of this.
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Originally Posted by MrRational
The time sensitive aspect is the even more important part. When under contract etc being updated promptly.
This is a feed problem. Trulia sucks in this regard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational
I'm referring to the filtering features available on those other search engines that is NOT available through realtor sources.
So complain to Redfin and tell them to join every MLS around the nation because they aren't meeting your need for data being filtered in the manner you want fast enough. They have the best user interface, but they are only in a few markets.
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Originally Posted by MrRational
The only question is how easily and thoroughly it can be accessed and filtered by someone NOT using a realtor.
That is where the the collusion and attempts at restraint of trade comes in.
High end sellers often value their privacy. It is a totally different market and mind-set. And yes, they hire REALTORS and often don't want to deal directly with a buyer because they don't want to. They demand their agents screen showings, buyers, and agents really well. Anti-trust, please.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational
The 1% of sellers who don't want the public data or a sign in their yard are a whole other discussion.
I bet you 75% of my clients would opt-out of a zillow zestimate if they could. This isn't a 1% deal here.
Control of the process: In light of new legislation and rules, Realtors have lesser control than in the past -- this a good thing. Unfortunately, you are still correct, and there is still too much control of the entire process, in my opinion.
Your suggestion is a good one with regard to home inspectors, as well being an efficient and trusted one when all is said and done.
Appraisal: Not necessarily active in "training" Appraisers. Realtors do not train Appraisers, as they are neither competent enough nor educated enough (within the contex); very, very far from it, as they are simply sales people. I do know what you are implying, however.
Realtors were (and, from scattered reports from the professional analysts -- many still are) active in black mailing Appraisers, retaining and selecting their own via promising them future incentives to close the deal, and black listing them (ruining their reputation and manipulating potential clients to not use them) if they didn't play ball. Various types of threats included, as well. As for as training -- possibly training them to do what they want or face whatever the consequences -- baiting them with promises that eventually involve fraud. I am not saying all Realtors were involved in these acts, but if I throw a needle into a decent size hay stack, can you find the needle?
A "Brick Wall" is ideal: The term Appraisers use is, "Firewall." I think separating Realtors from specific professionals that are typically involved in the home buying process would be a great stride toward a more ethical process. An incentive exists, and no one is going to be a Realtor unless commissions were involved -- a pay check. Why do Americans work? They work for a pay check. Realtors work for a commission, and the higher the price paid, the higher the pay a check. A Realtor has an incentive to choose their own lender, home inspector, Lawyer, Appraiser, and any other professional related to ultimately closing the deal. A Firewall would be ideal for moving the process toward a more ethical process for the general public and those who are involved.
Hi Greenback, I saw some ads for appraisal training on the NAR site a while back. Made me cringe. Don't know whether it is still there. Training, in their context was probably different from a qualified, professional but rather training in getting to keep the numbers in line with the salespeople.
One can always fire a salesperson but what isn't so transparent is the relationship between the segments greasing the wheel which does not benefit the buyer/seller. Hopefully, technology will reform the system and bring about some long needed changes.
I hope others also discuss the need to create legal brick/fire walls to promote independence for inspectors, banks and appraisers. I really think this would go a long way to imporve the process. We have an opportunity to make huge changes going forward but some tend to be like processionary caterpillars and just keep going round and round until they drop over.
It appears that older agents may not be welcome in the business according to the remarks in a prior quote but I think integrity trumps computer skills any day. I have seen a three year old pounding on the keyboard. Respect is earned.
It appears that older agents may not be welcome in the business according to the remarks in a prior quote but I think integrity trumps computer skills any day. I have seen a three year old pounding on the keyboard. Respect is earned.
Moderator cut: personal - off topic
I never said older agents aren't welcome in this business. I said newer agents tend to be better, not younger agents. A 50 year old agent that went through the current required trainings is a much better agent, than the 50 year old agent that went through training 25 years ago. I'm not talking about age, I'm talking about the date they got licensed.
Hi Greenback, I saw some ads for appraisal training on the NAR site a while back. Made me cringe. Don't know whether it is still there. Training, in their context was probably different from a qualified, professional but rather training in getting to keep the numbers in line with the salespeople.
The NAR was probably advertising Appraisal courses from a licensed or an approved affiliate, but it is not taught by Sales People. I would not look too much into that. The NAR associates with Appraisal Organizations and Real Estate Schools, and they have NAR members who are also Appraisers that hold an Appraisal Teacher's License who will put on events/seminars in order to gain monies, especially in a down market.
Overall, non related Real Estate websites will have links to access Real Estate Appraisal School. The NAR is into sales, and advertising, as you already know; it was most likely related to the circumstances noted in the above paragraph.
I am on my 4th house, 2 of them bought after my divorce. I have always had smooth transactions with professionals. I picked the 2nd agent b/c they sold a lot in my area. They referred me to #3 in another state and she sold my house when I left and referred me to #4 in yet another state. Now I have a friend who is good and I will use her next time. So all my experiences have been positive!
I would caution anyone in completely trusting any real estate agent or broker. Never forget they have many ways to profit at your expense, whether you are a buyer or a seller. I don’t care how altruistic they sound (“I’m not in it for the money”) or how nice they treat you. Agents take marketing courses that teach them how to manipulate their customers. They even have classes that tell them how to use blogs and websites like City Data to market themselves.
In the end, they are simply salespeople and they profit from a customer’s naiveté. The only way a customer can attempt to protect themselves is to get as educated as possible. Here’s one example that provides some insight into what agents can get away with and how you can try to counter the dishonesty: Keep Agents Honest. The Internet offers many other suggestions and insights.
We had a very diligent buyers agent who took us around and beat the bushes for properties to look at within our very short time frame. So far so good. However, what I did not learn about her until it was too late, was that she did not care if we overpaid, as long as she could get us to buy something so she could move on as quickly as possible.
When we SOLD our house, the agent of our buyer was a pitbull who tried to wring every dime out of us, and our agent on that end was intimidated by her. In both instances, I felt we we left to our own defenses more than we should have been.
I've only experienced one real estate transaction in my life. Here's the experience:
We found a home we loved and were unable to get in touch with the realtor for almost a week. By the time we finally viewed the home (and fell further in love with the interior), someone else made an offer that the seller accepted. The realtor then spent a lot of time trying to convince us to put offers in on her listings.
One day the realtor calls very enthusiastic and shows us a home that is pretty far above the top of our price range. She is very pushy, and says if we do not make a full price offer on this home, this day, we will never live in the neighborhoods we are interested in. The house is nice, but we have reservations. Realtor continues to push, so we make a full price offer and get the house. The owner/seller is a realtor, who is friends with our realtor. During the inspection, both realtors were there giggling and whispering to each other the entire time.
In retrospect, we learned that the price of the home was significantly inflated based on the following factors:
-The appraisal included inappropriate comps. 2 of the comps were from incomparable neighborhoods, and 2 had a price per square footage significantly lower than what we were paying.
-The square footage on the appraisal was increased. All other documentation says the square footage is 2015. All other identical floor plans in the neighborhood are listed at 2015 square feet. The appraisal used for our loan increased it by about 150 square feet (which at $203/sq ft is not insignificant).
Also in retrospect, we had a lot of problems with the loan officer (who was also a friend to the realtor...she pushed us to use this loan officer to expedite the process). This is what we encountered with the loan officer:
-Since the home was a higher price than we originally planned, we would need to contribute less of a down payment (percentage wise).
-The loan officer pushed for 100% financing. We said we would consider it, but wanted a good faith estimate reflecting a down payment. They only provided a good faith estimate for 100% financing, and then evaded us as the closing date neared.
-We explicitly stated that we wanted a traditional second loan, as they had discussed a HELOC. We said absolutely NO HELOC! We wanted a fixed rate, traditional second loan.
-At the closing table, we were faced with loan documents for 100% financing, with the 20% second loan being an adjustable rate HELOC.
I realize the whole thing is ultimately our responsibility, since we signed on the dotted line when we should have just walked away. We do feel that we were misled and pressured on all fronts - by both realtors and the loan officer. We were extremely naive and bought into the hype offered by our realtor. It taught us a lot of valuable, and expensive lessons. We WOULD NOT be underwater on our mortgage if the realtor had been working in our best interest and if we had stuck to our guns and not caved into the pressure and antics of the realtors and loan officer.
The owner/realtor also created a lot of chaos after she accepted the offer. First, having her present at the inspection was very uncomfortable. She made it part of the contract that we had to use an inspector of her choosing. When she was not giggling with our realtor, she was very distracting. We would ask a question of the inspector, and she would jump in and take over. We would be trying to pay attention to the inspection, and she would be loudly and aggressively pulling us around to show us other things in the house. She tried moving the closing date up by a couple of weeks, tried selling us the remaining belongings in the home (she wanted us to give her cash), was sending us emails of photos of the home from when she lived in it so that we could have "decorating ideas." It was all just kind of strange. Then when we moved in after closing, we discovered that she had not done about 80% of the repairs that were agreed to after the inspection. We tried contacting our realtor about this, but she was unreachable.
That's my story. I will be VERY discerning from now on when it comes to choosing a realtor.
Last edited by marmom; 05-20-2011 at 09:05 AM..
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