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This coming from a lawyer. Yes, for a lawyer these forms are simple to use and understand. Not so for the average person. I've even see lawyers trip up using our forms though as they don't know how to fill them out in order to make an offer attractive. Filling out a contract form in a legal way and understanding what you're filling out is only half the job. Filling it out in a way that's going to get your contract signed is another matter.
I've been a licensed attorney for 8 years completed so many contract negotiations, and negotiated so many deals (real estate and non-real estate) I know what buyers/sellers want to see on a contract. I am not someone new to real estate...I have been involved in probably close to 100 transactions in the last few years...Its impossible not to learn from them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePRU
I don't know how many states follow Texas' lead, but here in MA our forms are not available to unrepresented parties. Would you also suggest that people use the boiler plate documents available at office supply stores to setup their will? A trust perhaps? Knowing virtually nothing about estate planning, these documents seem pretty simple to me and I could just fill in the blanks. Right?
Texas's contracts are not in legalese, they are in plain english and are easy to understand. I can not speak to other states agreements, but the Texas forms are quite simple. Texas makes their forms simple and the courts have tested them and upheld them repeatedly. Texas requires its agents to use the standard forms. Its not legal for an agent to use a non-standardized form unless the client requests it and the agent has the client obtain an attorney. These contracts are nothing like a will. There are literally hundreds of pitfalls in a will, and even the most simple will is quite complex. I took Wills/Estates and I would not draft my own will. Wills are specialized and I would only trust a lawyer who does nothing but wills.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePRU
You've just described 95% of the public. I've yet to meet an average Joe who knows the market as well as or is as educated about buying/selling property as a practicing, experienced real estate agent.
Real estate is my hobby and a second source of income. I get alerts on every new listing in the 5 small pocket market areas I am active in. I work only in those areas and I know them as well as 99% of the agents. Sure there are a handful of agents in the bigger offices that have pocket listings I'm not aware of but if it goes on the MLS I track it from date of listing to close and price.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePRU
Despite what you think agents are a necessary cog in the machine on many levels. Personally, I think we should eliminate the participation of lawyers in the real estate transactions process. Here in MA lawyers are heavily involved, but it seems the process runs much smoother (and costs less) in other states where title/escrow companies do all the work.
I agree agents are necessary for many, probably most, but not me. I also agree that attorneys will mud up the waters - attorneys want to negotiate everything, every term, every deadline, everything...it makes contracts more difficult. I much prefer the title/escrow company approach. This is what we have in Texas and it is a very streamlined successful process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePRU
I've yet to meet a lawyer that knew squat about marketing. Even those that I see listing properties on MLS. As a consumer, I wouldn't be real happy about having the same person represent me as an agent and as an attorney. I like the checks and balances system of having two separate parties involved. I also would be unhappy if one person collected both a commission and legal fees.
I am confident in my marketing skills. I highly doubt you would be able to tell the difference between my listings and any other agent in Houston's listings. As to the checks/balances - Its not an issue. We use title companies...I act as both an agent & attorney for my "clients" (if you can call them that) but I am not doing the leg work of both..I only do the leg work of an agent - the title company does the attorney bit....Though I do review the title company documents and note mistakes that need correction....Any prudent consumer should do that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePRU
Having a license to practice real estate is different from actually being a real estate agent. I know TONS of people that are licensed and do not practice or they just dabble a bit. These people are hacks and shouldn't be allowed to carry a license. They do far more harm to their clients than they do good. Once your income is derived primarily from real estate commissions then please feel free to call yourself a real estate agent. Otherwise, you're misleading people.
That is your opinion. I am quite confident in my abilities. I have not yet had a dis-satisfied "client" I do not need to make a living doing something to be good at it. There is a tremendous amount of cross over between law/real estate. Both involve dealing with people intimately and both are service related...Certainly if I did real estate full time as my only job I would get better at what I do, but in my current state I do a good job - better than many of the agents in the area - but certainly not as good as the best ones. I don't intend that to sound arrogant, but if you had dealt with the awful agents I have dealt with you would understand why I am not at all questioning my abilities.
I bought my townhome For Sale by Owner, did it all by myself with the help of a lawyer. I don't think you need a realtor, really you can do it all yourself and save $10,000 or more just doing your own research.
There isn't a good local FSBO site here where I live. I have tried to find FSBO's for a new single family home. The only thing the realtor can do that a regular home seeker can't do is open up the locked home for you to look inside. That is it. I really don't trust many realtors, they seem to get money for doing very little, that a person can do all themselves.
While agents are useful for many they just flat out are not necessary for many, myself included. I am 100% confident that an agent can not add anything to my experiences of buying/selling.
If you ever bought in my area, I could wow you with my real estate prowess and my uncanny ability to know where all the great coffee is in town.
If you ever bought in my area, I could wow you with my real estate prowess and my uncanny ability to know where all the great coffee is in town.
I believe you. You are consistently the rational poster here who is capable of seeing both sides of the issue. I applaud your open mindedness and apparent ability to work with everyone.
I believe you. You are consistently the rational poster here who is capable of seeing both sides of the issue. I applaud your open mindedness and apparent ability to work with everyone.
Mega-Kudos for not including yourself in that group!
My background is a little unique here coming from intially being a broker (for 25 yrs now) and then becoming an appraiser. I pretty much appraise full time now other than working with friends or relatives when buying or selling, or for my portfolio.
I get to see the contracts for FSBO properties all the time as an appraiser. I can tell you that it is quite clear that the majority of FSBO sellers generally get less than market value. You just can't ignore the marketing benefit of an MLS system, especially if your local MLS systems has thousands, or tens of thousands of members. The numbers are just not on your side. Very few sellers are good at accurately determining market value either.
Once the public got access to some MLS data they think the are professional real estate brokers. They've completely missed all the other aspects of what it takes to sell a house with the least amount of liability and for the highest price. Sure, you can sell a house and miss out on filling out some important paperwork and maybe get away with it. But that's not a prudent way to handle an investment. And all sorts of studies besides NAR's data has show that FSBOs generally get less for their house and my 25 yrs of experience tells me the same thing.
Insofar as the reliability of NAR's data, I agree that their market advice is worthless. There's plenty of evidence for their failures in the past. But their survey of homebuyers and sellers is done by an outside firm and a lot of the data is publicly available. The number of FSBO properties sold each year is easy to determine by looking at the total number of sales in the country minus the number of broker assisted sales.
I always laugh at attorneys who think they know everything too. I've never met an attorney who kept up on financing options available for buyers. So while they can look over a contract, they have no idea how long it might take for the buyer to get qualified because they don't work in that area. So while they can see that there is some sort of date in the financing contingency box, they have no idea if it's reseasonable without having worked with the buyer on financing options. They also have not even seen the subject property. So when it comes to liability, they are less helpful that a competent broker who has seen the subject property and can advise his or her client (buyer or seller) with respect to conditions that should be disclosed or for which inspection(s) should be ordered.
Sitting in an office and being a 'formfiller' is not actually practicing real estate.
Fact is, 90% of all sellers choose a broker and than % has been pretty even over the years. With respect to determining the market value of a house, sites such as Zillow and Trulia are competely unreliable. Sometimes they can be pretty close, other times they will be way off. The problem is that you don't know if the estimate they've given you is one of the more reliable ones or one in which they are using bad data. Oh that's right, they don't actually show you how they are deriving your estimate of value- it's proprietary. So you have no good way of verifying how good their estimate is without comparing it to an outside source that does show you the analysis.
Time and time again I'll have a conversation with someone who is bragging about having sold their own house. I start to ask them technical questions with respect to things that they need to know to protect themselves and they have no answers. They just got lucky that their lack of knowledge didn't get them in trouble. Ask them about Reg Z, fair housing, radon, radium, asbestos, smoke detectors laws, inspector and appraiser licensing, the variety of mortgage options available, etc. etc. You'll find a very complete lack of knowledge in most areas other than sticking a sign in the ground and hoping that they get lucky.
My background is a little unique here coming from intially being a broker (for 25 yrs now) and then becoming an appraiser. I pretty much appraise full time now other than working with friends or relatives when buying or selling, or for my portfolio.
I get to see the contracts for FSBO properties all the time as an appraiser. I can tell you that it is quite clear that the majority of FSBO sellers generally get less than market value. You just can't ignore the marketing benefit of an MLS system, especially if your local MLS systems has thousands, or tens of thousands of members. The numbers are just not on your side. Very few sellers are good at accurately determining market value either.
Once the public got access to some MLS data they think the are professional real estate brokers. They've completely missed all the other aspects of what it takes to sell a house with the least amount of liability and for the highest price. Sure, you can sell a house and miss out on filling out some important paperwork and maybe get away with it. But that's not a prudent way to handle an investment. And all sorts of studies besides NAR's data has show that FSBOs generally get less for their house and my 25 yrs of experience tells me the same thing.
Insofar as the reliability of NAR's data, I agree that their market advice is worthless. There's plenty of evidence for their failures in the past. But their survey of homebuyers and sellers is done by an outside firm and a lot of the data is publicly available. The number of FSBO properties sold each year is easy to determine by looking at the total number of sales in the country minus the number of broker assisted sales.
I always laugh at attorneys who think they know everything too. I've never met an attorney who kept up on financing options available for buyers. So while they can look over a contract, they have no idea how long it might take for the buyer to get qualified because they don't work in that area. So while they can see that there is some sort of date in the financing contingency box, they have no idea if it's reseasonable without having worked with the buyer on financing options. They also have not even seen the subject property. So when it comes to liability, they are less helpful that a competent broker who has seen the subject property and can advise his or her client (buyer or seller) with respect to conditions that should be disclosed or for which inspection(s) should be ordered.
Sitting in an office and being a 'formfiller' is not actually practicing real estate.
Fact is, 90% of all sellers choose a broker and than % has been pretty even over the years. With respect to determining the market value of a house, sites such as Zillow and Trulia are competely unreliable. Sometimes they can be pretty close, other times they will be way off. The problem is that you don't know if the estimate they've given you is one of the more reliable ones or one in which they are using bad data. Oh that's right, they don't actually show you how they are deriving your estimate of value- it's proprietary. So you have no good way of verifying how good their estimate is without comparing it to an outside source that does show you the analysis.
Time and time again I'll have a conversation with someone who is bragging about having sold their own house. I start to ask them technical questions with respect to things that they need to know to protect themselves and they have no answers. They just got lucky that their lack of knowledge didn't get them in trouble. Ask them about Reg Z, fair housing, radon, radium, asbestos, smoke detectors laws, inspector and appraiser licensing, the variety of mortgage options available, etc. etc. You'll find a very complete lack of knowledge in most areas other than sticking a sign in the ground and hoping that they get lucky.
Once the public got access to some MLS data they think the are professional real estate brokers. They've completely missed all the other aspects of what it takes to sell a house with the least amount of liability and for the highest price. Sure, you can sell a house and miss out on filling out some important paperwork and maybe get away with it. But that's not a prudent way to handle an investment. And all sorts of studies besides NAR's data has show that FSBOs generally get less for their house and my 25 yrs of experience tells me the same thing.
Comparable sales is not rocket science. You look at MLS sales prices and you look at the properties & the pictures and you make an educated guess as to the probable sales price...you list there. If your scared you will do something wrong then you hire an appraiser. I have only listed 1 property and I hired an appraiser just to be sure that I was accurate b/c it was my first listing. He came in $2300 below my market estimate and used 4 of the same comps...I actually had more market knowledge of the properties that he used as comps because I have dealt with the builder who built them and I know that he uses some building practices such as foam insulation, ERV AC systems, and home dehumidifiers that are not common in our area, but cost more and are both more energy efficient and result in better air quality. There was no possible way an appraiser would have known that information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yousah
Insofar as the reliability of NAR's data, I agree that their market advice is worthless. There's plenty of evidence for their failures in the past. But their survey of homebuyers and sellers is done by an outside firm and a lot of the data is publicly available. The number of FSBO properties sold each year is easy to determine by looking at the total number of sales in the country minus the number of broker assisted sales.
The FSBO in Texas only tells you it sold and the only way to get that data is by pulling all deed records from the county and sifting through them manually - as a non-disclosure state you get no sales price information. Any statistic saying that FSBO in Texas sells for less than realtor assisted sales is pure speculation. The data does not exist to prove the statistic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yousah
I always laugh at attorneys who think they know everything too. I've never met an attorney who kept up on financing options available for buyers. So while they can look over a contract, they have no idea how long it might take for the buyer to get qualified because they don't work in that area. So while they can see that there is some sort of date in the financing contingency box, they have no idea if it's reseasonable without having worked with the buyer on financing options. They also have not even seen the subject property. So when it comes to liability, they are less helpful that a competent broker who has seen the subject property and can advise his or her client (buyer or seller) with respect to conditions that should be disclosed or for which inspection(s) should be ordered.
Sitting in an office and being a 'formfiller' is not actually practicing real estate.
My father in law is a mortgage broker. I dont know everything about financing by a long shot, but I know as much as the average agent, and I have an excellent resource to fall back on. I counsel everyone I know not to accept an offer to take a property of the market until financing is approved. I watched Wells Fargo screw with a relative last year and it delayed his closing twice for basically no reason. They could not be appeased b/c he is self employed and his income had sporadic large bumps but a very low W2 income. There is little one can do about cases such as those other than choose not to sell to them.
As to the property conditions, I flip/rent houses on the side. Its pretty easy for me to spot problems if I I view the property, but I don't know of anyone who would ever consider buying a house without an inspection. I look at everything I buy for myself, but I still always hire an inspector just to be sure I dont miss anything. I also only use inspectors who use infrared to detect water leaks and poor insulation jobs. The price is the same and you get to see whats behind the walls in terms of problems before you buy without causing damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yousah
Fact is, 90% of all sellers choose a broker and than % has been pretty even over the years. With respect to determining the market value of a house, sites such as Zillow and Trulia are competely unreliable. Sometimes they can be pretty close, other times they will be way off. The problem is that you don't know if the estimate they've given you is one of the more reliable ones or one in which they are using bad data. Oh that's right, they don't actually show you how they are deriving your estimate of value- it's proprietary. So you have no good way of verifying how good their estimate is without comparing it to an outside source that does show you the analysis.
We agree that Zillow is worthless. Its more than $200,000 off on some of the properties immediately surrounding me...I know what sales prices are in the ares around me....and I dont need Zillow to help me. There are so many sales right now in the spot area I have one listing that I could get 20 properties within 3 blocks of each other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yousah
Time and time again I'll have a conversation with someone who is bragging about having sold their own house. I start to ask them technical questions with respect to things that they need to know to protect themselves and they have no answers. They just got lucky that their lack of knowledge didn't get them in trouble. Ask them about Reg Z, fair housing, radon, radium, asbestos, smoke detectors laws, inspector and appraiser licensing, the variety of mortgage options available, etc. etc. You'll find a very complete lack of knowledge in most areas other than sticking a sign in the ground and hoping that they get lucky.
Regulation Z? That has nothing to do with a seller unless they are owner-financing which the average agent is nearly useless for anyway.
Fair Housing - Individuals selling/renting their own house are exempt from fair housing laws. FSBO is clearly exempt as well.
Asbestos/lead paint have their own forms which are simple to find.
Smoke detectors are grandfathered unless you do any act that requires a permit...in which case you must bring them up to code.
I think your generalizations of the public may be accurate in general but your generalization does not apply to all...I for one do not feel intimidated or uninformed. I did learn a bit in the real estate licensing classes I did not know already but it was mostly repetitive.
My background is a little unique here coming from intially being a broker (for 25 yrs now) and then becoming an appraiser. I pretty much appraise full time now other than working with friends or relatives when buying or selling, or for my portfolio.
I get to see the contracts for FSBO properties all the time as an appraiser. I can tell you that it is quite clear that the majority of FSBO sellers generally get less than market value. You just can't ignore the marketing benefit of an MLS system, especially if your local MLS systems has thousands, or tens of thousands of members. The numbers are just not on your side. Very few sellers are good at accurately determining market value either.
Once the public got access to some MLS data they think the are professional real estate brokers. They've completely missed all the other aspects of what it takes to sell a house with the least amount of liability and for the highest price. Sure, you can sell a house and miss out on filling out some important paperwork and maybe get away with it. But that's not a prudent way to handle an investment. And all sorts of studies besides NAR's data has show that FSBOs generally get less for their house and my 25 yrs of experience tells me the same thing.
Insofar as the reliability of NAR's data, I agree that their market advice is worthless. There's plenty of evidence for their failures in the past. But their survey of homebuyers and sellers is done by an outside firm and a lot of the data is publicly available. The number of FSBO properties sold each year is easy to determine by looking at the total number of sales in the country minus the number of broker assisted sales.
I always laugh at attorneys who think they know everything too. I've never met an attorney who kept up on financing options available for buyers. So while they can look over a contract, they have no idea how long it might take for the buyer to get qualified because they don't work in that area. So while they can see that there is some sort of date in the financing contingency box, they have no idea if it's reseasonable without having worked with the buyer on financing options. They also have not even seen the subject property. So when it comes to liability, they are less helpful that a competent broker who has seen the subject property and can advise his or her client (buyer or seller) with respect to conditions that should be disclosed or for which inspection(s) should be ordered.
Sitting in an office and being a 'formfiller' is not actually practicing real estate.
Fact is, 90% of all sellers choose a broker and than % has been pretty even over the years. With respect to determining the market value of a house, sites such as Zillow and Trulia are competely unreliable. Sometimes they can be pretty close, other times they will be way off. The problem is that you don't know if the estimate they've given you is one of the more reliable ones or one in which they are using bad data. Oh that's right, they don't actually show you how they are deriving your estimate of value- it's proprietary. So you have no good way of verifying how good their estimate is without comparing it to an outside source that does show you the analysis.
Time and time again I'll have a conversation with someone who is bragging about having sold their own house. I start to ask them technical questions with respect to things that they need to know to protect themselves and they have no answers. They just got lucky that their lack of knowledge didn't get them in trouble. Ask them about Reg Z, fair housing, radon, radium, asbestos, smoke detectors laws, inspector and appraiser licensing, the variety of mortgage options available, etc. etc. You'll find a very complete lack of knowledge in most areas other than sticking a sign in the ground and hoping that they get lucky.
Bummer! I can't give you more rep points YET! Thanks for your intelligent insight.
Bummer! I can't give you more rep points YET! Thanks for your intelligent insight.
I think I'm done with this thread.
I took care of him for you, Vicki.
Well-earned, too.
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