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This is a perfect example of why "good fences make good neighbors", and why I will never own in either an HOA controlled community or a condo. Just as with government, unchecked power never ends well, and most HOA's and condo associations run without much oversight from the rest of the members.
IMO, giving my neighbor the authority to police my property is just asking for trouble. Creating a situation such as this based upon a "temporary" political sign (obviously would be taken down after the election) is a perfect example of how ridiculous and petty people can be.
If anyone is familiar with Occoquan Forest in Prince William County VA, they know about the unlawful annexation of an entire section that collapsed the entire HOA into a civic association. For 20 years our community operated as having mandatory CC&R's, until 3 homeowners did some deeper digging, got their attorneys involved and thumbed their noses at the officers and BOD........they now could paint their homes pink and no one could say a word.
Virginia (as most states do) has very explicit laws about establishing a mandatory HOA.....there was a slight of hand decades ago and no one spoke up........look deep, your HOA may not be legal......
Personally, I thought the Board at the time had gone a bit far with their enforcement and was glad to see the disbanding....but the neighborhood has since suffered. Had that BOD not acted like rulers on a power trip, no one would have done the digging and no one would be the wiser today.
Was the Board enforcing the CC&Rs as written or were they making up rules as they went along? If they were enforcing the rules as written (and agreed to by every resident upon purchase in the community) then they were doing their jobs and nothing more. If they were making up rules to suit themselves, then the community should have removed them from their positions post haste.
An HOA Board doesn't have the option to enforce just the bylaws they personally agree with anymore than they can enforce rules that don't exist. To do either means they are not doing their jobs.
Was the Board enforcing the CC&Rs as written or were they making up rules as they went along? If they were enforcing the rules as written (and agreed to by every resident upon purchase in the community) then they were doing their jobs and nothing more. If they were making up rules to suit themselves, then the community should have removed them from their positions post haste.
An HOA Board doesn't have the option to enforce just the bylaws they personally agree with anymore than they can enforce rules that don't exist. To do either means they are not doing their jobs.
UNC, you are absolutely correct. Failure to enforce bylaws has brought about lawsuits in other HOAs. However, in this case the Farrans apparently did thumb their noses by cutting their sign in half and having two signs. Guess what, if the bylaws didn't expressly limit the number of signs, then the Farrans were perfectly within the bylaws of the Association. HOA boards are not called upon to enforce the "spirit" of the law anymore than they are authorized to make bylaws up without following the processes outlined in their CC&Rs.
I both worked for an HOA managment company for the last two years of my working years (a retirement job) and served as president of the HOA of my own community. Both experiences were enlightening. There are both well-run HOAs and dysfunctional HOAs. I attended HOA meetings for dozens of associations in my position as the admin asst. to the president of a small management company (55-60 associations). A few worked well all the time, a few were a problem all the time--one so much that our president "fired" them as our client. Most had ups and downs.
The hardest thing I ever had to do as president of my own HOA when neighbors complained was to tell a lady who had painted her door a subdued red color to match the two beautiful, same-colored flower vases on her porch, that she would have to let us repaint her door to match all the other doors in our townhouse community. She was a proud and strong woman who loved flowers, and both my wife and I thought the muted colors did much to enhance the eye appeal of her dwelling. So I made an appointment to visit her, bought a large flowering plant out of my own pocket, and went to visit with her. I told her that her door was beautiful, but that it had become a political problem for me and our board. I asked her to accept the flowers as my personal token of apology for needing to enforce a bylaw that had always existed in our CC&Rs. Further, to mitigate the issue, I delayed enforcing the repainting until the next regular painting of doors and trim in our community, which was scheduled about six months from then.
Both sides of the issue were not really happy, but mollified to a degree.
As a board member, I also got a call one Saturday morning when it was snowing. A woman who had been a former board member was complaining that we were "wasting" association money by having our snow crew out to shovel snow when there was only two inches of snow. I thought, well, maybe she's right. But our snow contract called for shovelers and pickups with blades to be out when there was MORE than two inches of snow (which we later found out we had 2 1/2 inches). The reason it was that small amount was the number of elderly we had in our community. I was just about to phone our contractor and call off the shoveling when another lady, more elderly, called me to complain that shovelers were out but not coming into her area and she wanted to walk to the store.
So you can be well-intentioned as a board member and STILL get caught in the crossfire.
When it came time to paint I made a request of the contractor and our HOA management company that my unit be the last one painted. I wanted no one to see as favoritism my townhome being painted earlier than anyone elses. Turned out that the painting company had divided the community into sections from the oldest built to the most new and painted them by section. To leave mine (in section two) and come back would have been an additional charge for moving the trucks and gear an additional time, so I demurred to systemic logic.
When I first got on the board, we had a lawn care contractor who was the brother-in-law of another board member. I took that member to coffee and explained that even though the relationship had been disclosed before that contractor was hired, it left the board open to accusation of favoritism. We made a joint decision to let the contract run its annual course and hire a different contractor for the following year.
Then I urged our entire board to adopt and sign individual conflict of interest agreements and post them on the internet as a reminder to all our homeowners AND ourselves, that the interest of the community would in no manner profit any board member or any member of their family.
At the suggestion of our management company we posted notice of ALL board meetings, even those that were regular--occuring the second Tuesday of every month. The only closed meetings held were first announced and were held only for meeting with homeowners who had made an appeal of some ruling (we had very few of these--maybe three or four in the three years I was on the board). And we always held the closed meeting before we held an open meeting for all members.
It is difficult to be on a board and operate in a fair and considerate manner. It is incumbent upon EVERYONE who purchases into an HOA community to (1) read their CC&Rs, and (2) attend board meetings to be certain business is conducted properly. It's also important to turn boards over every so often to get some fresh ideas in place.
People who complain of not having a choice of living in an HOA, or being surprised by a rule in the convenants that they signed are lying in with regard to the first (Please show me IC a single state that has a statue REQUIRING you to live in an HOA), and have been lazy with regard to the second.
HOA's are not for everybody. They are for people who are willing to subjugate certain otherwise freedoms (like building a ten foot monument to Elvis in their yards), to a common set of rules that all abide by. They can be very effective for older adults who may wish the security of neighbors (or even a gated community), don't want to mow grass or shovel snow.
But they are absolutely NOT for anyone that doesn't want to spend the time and effort to make sure the governance of their community remains stable. The AARP has endorsed model legislation proposed by a Houston attorney to provide certain protections to homeowners in HOAs. It is literally a bill of rights for owners in an HOA. I encourage everyone to urge their state legislators to adopt it to help reduce the number of unfortunate incidents such has occurred to the folks in the OP's illustrated HOA.
It is incumbent upon EVERYONE who purchases into an HOA community to (1) read their CC&Rs, and (2) attend board meetings to be certain business is conducted properly.
Amen to that.
As a member of my HOA Board, I routinely get calls from residents that are one of the following: (1) Reporting something another resident did that they KNOW is a violation or (2) Complaining that the Management Company sent them a letter about a violation of a bylaw that they KNOW is incorrect. Most of the time both calls result in me explaining why the neighbors action is not a violation or explaining why the letter they received was indeed correct. Any resident in an HOA neighborhood who suspects a violation has occurred or receives a letter about a violation, should first pull out their copy of the CC&Rs and read them to determine if what they think they know is factually correct.
And, yes, people should attend Board meetings. Ours are open to all residents other than a private meeting prior. The sole purpose of the private meeting is to keep private matters that would be embarrassing to a resident if they were know to the community at large, like non-payment of dues or a pending foreclosure.
UNC, you are absolutely correct. Failure to enforce bylaws has brought about lawsuits in other HOAs. However, in this case the Farrans apparently did thumb their noses by cutting their sign in half and having two signs. Guess what, if the bylaws didn't expressly limit the number of signs, then the Farrans were perfectly within the bylaws of the Association. HOA boards are not called upon to enforce the "spirit" of the law anymore than they are authorized to make bylaws up without following the processes outlined in their CC&Rs.
I both worked for an HOA managment company for the last two years of my working years (a retirement job) and served as president of the HOA of my own community. Both experiences were enlightening. There are both well-run HOAs and dysfunctional HOAs. I attended HOA meetings for dozens of associations in my position as the admin asst. to the president of a small management company (55-60 associations). A few worked well all the time, a few were a problem all the time--one so much that our president "fired" them as our client. Most had ups and downs.
The hardest thing I ever had to do as president of my own HOA when neighbors complained was to tell a lady who had painted her door a subdued red color to match the two beautiful, same-colored flower vases on her porch, that she would have to let us repaint her door to match all the other doors in our townhouse community. She was a proud and strong woman who loved flowers, and both my wife and I thought the muted colors did much to enhance the eye appeal of her dwelling. So I made an appointment to visit her, bought a large flowering plant out of my own pocket, and went to visit with her. I told her that her door was beautiful, but that it had become a political problem for me and our board. I asked her to accept the flowers as my personal token of apology for needing to enforce a bylaw that had always existed in our CC&Rs. Further, to mitigate the issue, I delayed enforcing the repainting until the next regular painting of doors and trim in our community, which was scheduled about six months from then.
Both sides of the issue were not really happy, but mollified to a degree.
As a board member, I also got a call one Saturday morning when it was snowing. A woman who had been a former board member was complaining that we were "wasting" association money by having our snow crew out to shovel snow when there was only two inches of snow. I thought, well, maybe she's right. But our snow contract called for shovelers and pickups with blades to be out when there was MORE than two inches of snow (which we later found out we had 2 1/2 inches). The reason it was that small amount was the number of elderly we had in our community. I was just about to phone our contractor and call off the shoveling when another lady, more elderly, called me to complain that shovelers were out but not coming into her area and she wanted to walk to the store.
So you can be well-intentioned as a board member and STILL get caught in the crossfire.
When it came time to paint I made a request of the contractor and our HOA management company that my unit be the last one painted. I wanted no one to see as favoritism my townhome being painted earlier than anyone elses. Turned out that the painting company had divided the community into sections from the oldest built to the most new and painted them by section. To leave mine (in section two) and come back would have been an additional charge for moving the trucks and gear an additional time, so I demurred to systemic logic.
When I first got on the board, we had a lawn care contractor who was the brother-in-law of another board member. I took that member to coffee and explained that even though the relationship had been disclosed before that contractor was hired, it left the board open to accusation of favoritism. We made a joint decision to let the contract run its annual course and hire a different contractor for the following year.
Then I urged our entire board to adopt and sign individual conflict of interest agreements and post them on the internet as a reminder to all our homeowners AND ourselves, that the interest of the community would in no manner profit any board member or any member of their family.
At the suggestion of our management company we posted notice of ALL board meetings, even those that were regular--occuring the second Tuesday of every month. The only closed meetings held were first announced and were held only for meeting with homeowners who had made an appeal of some ruling (we had very few of these--maybe three or four in the three years I was on the board). And we always held the closed meeting before we held an open meeting for all members.
It is difficult to be on a board and operate in a fair and considerate manner. It is incumbent upon EVERYONE who purchases into an HOA community to (1) read their CC&Rs, and (2) attend board meetings to be certain business is conducted properly. It's also important to turn boards over every so often to get some fresh ideas in place.
People who complain of not having a choice of living in an HOA, or being surprised by a rule in the convenants that they signed are lying in with regard to the first (Please show me IC a single state that has a statue REQUIRING you to live in an HOA), and have been lazy with regard to the second.
HOA's are not for everybody. They are for people who are willing to subjugate certain otherwise freedoms (like building a ten foot monument to Elvis in their yards), to a common set of rules that all abide by. They can be very effective for older adults who may wish the security of neighbors (or even a gated community), don't want to mow grass or shovel snow.
But they are absolutely NOT for anyone that doesn't want to spend the time and effort to make sure the governance of their community remains stable. The AARP has endorsed model legislation proposed by a Houston attorney to provide certain protections to homeowners in HOAs. It is literally a bill of rights for owners in an HOA. I encourage everyone to urge their state legislators to adopt it to help reduce the number of unfortunate incidents such has occurred to the folks in the OP's illustrated HOA.
And, yes, there were no winners.
Wow, I wish you were on our board. We have board members getting their landscaping taken care of free (and that's just what an ethical, moral, honorable board member could see from the street on a walk and questioned...don't know what they're doing on the inside) by the maintenance guy. The good board member asked the maintenance man casually...didn't accost him...saying he had a tree that needed to be trimmed every two years how much did maintenance man charge. The maintenance man said very happily (I think he's a nice guy with not much sense) oh, don't worry about that, I'll take care of your tree like I do soandso's. Free. No charge because I do it on the homeowner's time. If I did it on my time I'd have to charge you see.
So this is what we want...to pay our dues to have board member's yards done for free. If the guy doesn't have enough work he needs to go to part time.
Anyway, nice to hear what a nice person you were to these people. We need muchmuchmuch more of that.
Do to others the good you would have them do to you
Quote:
Originally Posted by cully
Wow, I wish you were on our board. We have board members getting their landscaping taken care of free (and that's just what an ethical, moral, honorable board member could see from the street on a walk and questioned...don't know what they're doing on the inside) by the maintenance guy. The good board member asked the maintenance man casually...didn't accost him...saying he had a tree that needed to be trimmed every two years how much did maintenance man charge. The maintenance man said very happily (I think he's a nice guy with not much sense) oh, don't worry about that, I'll take care of your tree like I do soandso's. Free. No charge because I do it on the homeowner's time. If I did it on my time I'd have to charge you see.
So this is what we want...to pay our dues to have board member's yards done for free. If the guy doesn't have enough work he needs to go to part time.
Anyway, nice to hear what a nice person you were to these people. We need muchmuchmuch more of that.
Thanks for the comments, Cully. I once mentioned to our lawn company manager that I needed some trimming of a large bush in our private yard. He said he would send somebody by--and he did. I didn't get a bill for a couple of weeks and called him to ask about it. He said, "No problem, we'll just do it for free." I told him if he wouldn't send me a bill I would notify all our homeowners that his company would be willing to come into their private yard to trim bushes/trees---for free!
He promptly sent me a bill for $50.
Our board traveled three times per year to go to a seminar put on by our HOA management company. Mileage was technically reimburseable from the HOA. I told my board members they were welcome to do as they saw fit, but I would not submit a bill, and offered any of the other directors, if they felt they needed to be reimbursed, to carpool with me instead. And I think there was only one time someone drove their own vehicle. It was only about a twelve to fifteen mile roundtrip. But the few dollars I would have recovered were not worth the questions that might arise in someone's mind.
It's kind of hard to get people to trust you if you are seen benefiting from a board position.
I'd say the winners are future HOA residents whose HOAs will get the message to choose their battles more wisely rather than turn a petty grievance into a federal case. Other winners include those who will be persuaded not to voluntarily live under one of these micro-dictatorships.
Yes, i agree the winners are the future homeowners, but probably because their houses will cost less to buy from the people that own them today. I assume that central square created value for the community.
The couple did nothing wrong. Initially their sign was a whopping 4 inches too big, the corrected it.
Have a problem with reasoning there? You said they did nothing wrong then mentioned what they did wrong??? They also agreed that they violated the rules.
So they started off by violating the rules, then in response to being notified ended up displaying another two signs in their yard which were basically the sign cut in half.
The issue with HOA enforcement isn't that one person's action with a sign will lower property values, but with the problem of not enforcing rules so that numerous other residents do the same thing; and it grows out of control. You see it mentioned in the press all the time where the writer talks about how silly it is for an HOA to enforce their rules regarding some small detail. As soon as you let people violate the rules then others will argue that you are favoring that person and will end up having less respect for all the other rules.
Think about how well this could have turned out if the people with the sign would have gone to the HOA to petition to get the rules changed prior to violating them. If they had support from enough other owners then the rules could have been changed. They've obviously didn't have support from their neighbors so they pushed this thing so far as to create damages for everyone else. It's clearly a problem of two arrogant *^?%'s who only think about themselves.
Think about how well this could have turned out if the people with the sign would have gone to the HOA to petition to get the rules changed prior to violating them. If they had support from enough other owners then the rules could have been changed. They've obviously didn't have support from their neighbors so they pushed this thing so far as to create damages for everyone else. It's clearly a problem of two arrogant *^?%'s who only think about themselves.
Ummmmmm... if you had read and comprehended the article you would have learned that the lawsuit had nothing to do with the sign, and everything to do with 1) the HOA passing rules outside of its authority, and 2) the HOA Board not following its own internal procedures.
That was after they were attacked by the homeowners. Sure, at that point the Board was trying to get even and they stepped over the line. But it all started with the homeowners pushing the issue.
I'd never live in a community with an HOA, but I respect their right to enforce their rules.
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Boards need to be neutral
