Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
At least, that's my experience. And of course, it depends on the type of retail tenants the management leases to, under the apartments above street level.
My situation is that there is a wine bar under my apartment. When I looked at their website, and when I came during the day to see the place, interview, etc., it looked like a posh, restaurant type place. They're only open from 5pm and their website says they close at 9pm.
So, then I move in. But wait, they decide to have live bands on Fridays and Saturdays. Short version: They now have live rock and roll bands up to four nights a week this month. When they host live rock bands, it rattles my teeth up here. Pure misery. Can't even watch a movie with headphones.
I was never told to expect this level of noise.
After 3 months of complaining, taking videos (concerts happen well after management is gone), looking up noise ordinances, asking my neighbors how it affects them (they hate it but don't want to complain), management decided to offer me an apartment on the other side of the building. This will be a pain (to move), but I should be able to live in relative peace on that side of the building.
When the wine bar just has it's ambiance music on during their dinner, I don't hear them at all. They can be jam packed and it's no problem. But, they are ramping up their evening live music, advertising themselves as the hot music venue for the downtown area.
At any rate, management is probably under some pressure from the city, as the city is trying to revitalize the downtown area. And, as I'm apparently the only vocal senior in this "caring senior apartment community," they find it easier to just move the noisy senior, than deal with the wine bar.
I feel sure this isn't the type of mixed use the management (or corporate office) envisioned for a retail tenant in a "caring senior apartment community," but the wine bar has grown it's live evening music business, the city is probably happy to have people flocking to downtown, and the poor seniors above the bar suffer in silence.
And when I spoke with management about the noise ordinance, they said, well it's a commercial space, so residential noise levels wouldn't apply. If they hadn't offered to move me, I would have fought them on that. But, this is the type of issue that is a problem for mixed use buildings. Does the noise ordinance levels for commercial applications apply, or residential? The difference is about 10 decibels more allowed for commercial.
My experience is that a mixed use building is a can of worms. The other retail tenants in the building affect us senior tenants not at all. There is a hair stylist, a jeweler, a graphics designer - all quiet businesses. If our management only leased to these types of businesses, there'd be no problem.
So, as real estate developers, how do you deal with the mixed use problems? Businesses are going to want to expand their businesses, tenants are going to want to live in peace. How to make it work? What laws and ordinances apply?
The answer lies in zoning as well as the type of license the "wine bar" holds..... at least in my market where we have quite of lot of mixed-use housing/retail. Live entertainment requires a "cabaret" license in my market.
The answer lies in zoning as well as the type of license the "wine bar" holds..... at least in my market where we have quite of lot of mixed-use housing/retail. Live entertainment requires a "cabaret" license in my market.
See that makes more sense. The concerts are scheduled to end at 10pm, which happens to be when the residential tenants are also supposed to be quiet in my bldg.
When I went downstairs at 1:30am because of blasting music coming from an after-hours party one night, the owner said their liquor license gives them the right to be open until 2am. The manager of the building said the same thing to me. I told both of them that I seriously doubt that gives them the right to blast music at top volume until 2am.
But, after complaining about the after hours parties, those did stop. But, the manager basically says that because they are a commercial business, that that means they can basically do what they want, as long as they're quiet by 10pm now. I still beg to differ.
I think the wine bar used to be quiet, starting including live entertainment, and kept expanding the live entertainment, and nobody every complained. I do know that there has been significant tenant turnover above the bar.
If they hadn't decided to move me, I would have pursued what they are really licensed to do, and gotten a decibel meter to see what the levels were, and if they'd be allowed, etc. Even though part of me feels like I should advocate for the seniors above the bar (the one senior who lives right above the stage is ill and in a wheelchair), I hate for people to suffer in silence. But, I guess I can't fight everybody's battles. I'll take my new apartment and at least I will get some relief.
But, as you say, it makes more sense that they would require some type of different license to host live rock bands. And I can't imagine them getting one in a senior apartment community building.
Have you talked to the city zoning or liquor control people to see if the wine bar is in compliance with what they are zoned/licensed for?
No, I decided to take their offer of a different apartment and let it go.
My next step was going to be to take sound readings with an Leq/db meter (had ordered one on Amazon, but canceled the order when they offered me the different apartment). I thought I'd see if they were in compliance noise-wise first.
Then I planned on going to the city with my meter readings and complaining.
I wrote up a complaint for my neighbors to sign, but they didn't want to complain. They'd rather suffer. So, I need to let go of trying to save them, if they won't even sign a complaint.
I guess I just needed to vent, and was curious if any developers here knew if there was any kind of standard with regard to how zoning works for multi-use buildings. Like, does a bar that is in a residential hotel have to comply with residential noise limits, or can they get away with commercial noise limits, even if the adjacent property (the tenant upstairs) is residential?
We had this exact issue in my city and the city said no music above a certain decibel level after 10. The place shut down. There are city noise ordinances which generally apply to all properties.
.....................
So, as real estate developers, how do you deal with the mixed use problems? Businesses are going to want to expand their businesses, tenants are going to want to live in peace..........
Since you ask, as a landlord, if I have a tenant move in over a business and then immediately start making a lot of complaints about the noise from the business, I give the tenant their 30 day notice to vacate.
I don't own apartments over businesses, but if I did, I would attempt to rent to employees or management of those businesses. The other way to deal with it is to make the rent really low. Which I am pretty sure is what is done in your building, OP. People with very little money for rent are generally grateful that they have found anything that they can afford, especially if it is clean and maintained. The feeling seems to be that band music beats living in a cardboard box behind a dumpster somewhere.
It's possible that the owner of that building signed a lease for a wine bar without putting in the proper restrictions and now they have a lease where they can't stop the live music. If that is what happened, there is nothing that the landlord can do about the band music. Maybe there is some sort of city ordinance that applies; it is worth looking into.
Since you ask, as a landlord, if I have a tenant move in over a business and then immediately start making a lot of complaints about the noise from the business, I give the tenant their 30 day notice to vacate.
I don't own apartments over businesses, but if I did, I would attempt to rent to employees or management of those businesses. The other way to deal with it is to make the rent really low. Which I am pretty sure is what is done in your building, OP. People with very little money for rent are generally grateful that they have found anything that they can afford, especially if it is clean and maintained. The feeling seems to be that band music beats living in a cardboard box behind a dumpster somewhere.
It's possible that the owner of that building signed a lease for a wine bar without putting in the proper restrictions and now they have a lease where they can't stop the live music. If that is what happened, there is nothing that the landlord can do about the band music. Maybe there is some sort of city ordinance that applies; it is worth looking into.
I do see your point. But, when I looked up this wine bar online before I moved over it, it said they close at 9pm. The management said nothing about noise from the bar to be expected. Then, I discovered they had concerts on Fri and Sat nights, but it was usually just those nights and not rock and roll bands. Then, it was rock and roll bands, and then it was 3 nights a week, and this month it's up to 4 nights a week.
Bottom line, though, and you're right - is that there are still laws that even apply to poor people living in cheap apartments.
if I was going to stay, I'd look into the ordinances, etc., and fight it.
I think you must be right about the management also not covering the possibility of live rock bands going into the wine bar. It's also an expensive restaurant. So, they moved in, I'm guessing, as just a fine dining establishment. And over time, they're learning that their audience in this town is blue collar lower-income folk who like rock and roll. I also saw that they are adding cheaper items to their menu.
So, I bet you're right, that management is in a quandry, and likely talked to their lawyer who said, see if you can shut up this trouble maker asap by moving her into a quiet apartment lol!
They broke their own rules by putting me so quickly into another apartment. They've recently let us know all the rules about transferring (they're like going up against a brick wall) and she once told me, basically, to forget about being able to transfer. But, they quickly found me an apartment I can move into in the next month, after I started circulating a petition about noise ordinances, etc.
You're right, though, we could probably still get them to tone it down with the noise ordinances. But, honestly, even though my first goal was to stay in my apt and make the wine bar behave, I realized it would be a constant battle with them, having to police them constantly, getting the police dept to hate that PITA senior lady who keeps calling them to do sound meter readings, etc., etc. Best to just move into the other side of the building.
We had this exact issue in my city and the city said no music above a certain decibel level after 10. The place shut down. There are city noise ordinances which generally apply to all properties.
Interesting. Yeah, if the wine bar was made to comply with the noise level, I'm betting, they simply could not have live rock and roll bands, as there'd be no way for the bands to play quietly enough, yet still be amplified. Or not enough to keep a crowd happy.
I canceled my order for the decibel meter. Would have been interesting to see those readings.
The noise ordinance for my city is actually really short and sweet for established areas (there are other complicated ones for new construction, etc.). Basically there's one maximum Leq/DB level for 7 - 10 pm and one for 10pm - 7 am. Commercial businesses are allowed to be 10 Leq/db higher than residential.
There's a separate one for industrial, which they don't specify, but it wouldn't apply anyway.
I'm betting the wine bar is exceeding even the commercial maximum level.
I made a video last weekend so the management could hear how loud it was. I walked outside the bar, and the door was open. A girl came out of the bar, and we were standing in front of the open door and she wanted to pet my dog and chat a minute. We had to yell to hear each other. You can barely understand what we're saying for the volume of the music and the people in the bar yelling to hear each other. And the stage is at the far end of their space from the front door.
That's why I'm thinking they wouldn't even pass the commercial volume level allowed.
I wonder if I was to call the police (not going to bother, as long as I really get my new apt), and they came to do a reading in my apt, if that would mean that the noise had to be the appropriate level for a residential unit, even though the noise was coming from the commercial business downstairs?
This is the point my manager and I were arguing yesterday. I finally said, well, it doesn't matter, as moving to a quieter apt works for me. In my mind I was thinking this is why we need judges lol! Two people with two different opinions on how to interpret a law, need a judge to decide.
Sounds like in your city, the judge said - nope, you don't get to blast your music under those apartments.
NoSnow, i still think you should check with zoning and/or liquor control just to see what exactly is allowed in that commercial space. You wouldn't have to make a Federal case out of it. It may be that whatever they're doing is contrary to zoning or their liquor license and then you could let Those offices do all the "heavy lifting" without you having to use noise meters, videos, calling the cops, etc.
I have stayed in a hotel in Vegas with a band below my window, and was on a cruise where my cabin was directly above the disco, so I know how annoying this can be.
Enjoy your new apartment
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
