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Old 05-14-2014, 06:37 PM
 
238 posts, read 370,163 times
Reputation: 112

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Quote:
Originally Posted by johngolf View Post
Those documents are BS, feel good things. Goody, goody two shoes for you. Useless.

One can not stop cheaters, they will find another way to cheat. I am by no means saying your BOD cheats but I am saying your efforts might be misaimed.
They were the ones who wanted to vote on it. The big thing is that they fear I am not speaking w 'one voice' and to try and get me to agree to this is their way of trying to control me from expressing an opinion not in agreement w theirs in the presence of a unit owner.

But as another poster pointed out that it'd need to be voted on by the association to be in the official docs so probably pointless.
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Old 05-14-2014, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Columbia SC
12,464 posts, read 11,018,866 times
Reputation: 18398
One has to look for the smoking gun meaning ones reasons for doing whatever. Most of those saying they are doing it for the overall good of all are simply doing it for their own reason(s).

Let be clear on one thing. I do agree with all docs being posted on a website and available to all to view. My problem is with BOD's not allowing such or those want to do such alone. I trust neither.
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Old 05-14-2014, 07:41 PM
 
238 posts, read 370,163 times
Reputation: 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by johngolf View Post
One has to look for the smoking gun meaning ones reasons for doing whatever. Most of those saying they are doing it for the overall good of all are simply doing it for their own reason(s).

Let be clear on one thing. I do agree with all docs being posted on a website and available to all to view. My problem is with BOD's not allowing such or those want to do such alone. I trust neither.
I hear ya. I don't think I have anything to gain by doing it really. I honestly feel being transparent is the best policy. And there are lots of roadblocks to that it seems. So by pushing for transparency I'm asking them to see if they will say yes. And when they say no, I feel concerned because I can't see a good reason not to, and only really bad reasons not to (taking business from mgmt) and potential other bad reasons having to do w land sale issues at our condo. I kind of think they created a trust in which they put some of the associations land without getting a vote. Don't know if that's a problem, and it's just a guess.

So I don't have anything to gain other than the satisfaction of being at a condo where the board deals above board on all things, is transparent, accountable, etc.

Some might say I should just not get involved, but somehow that is the harder path for me on something like this.
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Old 05-14-2014, 08:02 PM
 
Location: Columbia SC
12,464 posts, read 11,018,866 times
Reputation: 18398
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxboro82 View Post
I hear ya. I don't think I have anything to gain by doing it really. I honestly feel being transparent is the best policy. And there are lots of roadblocks to that it seems. So by pushing for transparency I'm asking them to see if they will say yes. And when they say no, I feel concerned because I can't see a good reason not to, and only really bad reasons not to (taking business from mgmt) and potential other bad reasons having to do w land sale issues at our condo. I kind of think they created a trust in which they put some of the associations land without getting a vote. Don't know if that's a problem, and it's just a guess.

So I don't have anything to gain other than the satisfaction of being at a condo where the board deals above board on all things, is transparent, accountable, etc.

Some might say I should just not get involved, but somehow that is the harder path for me on something like this.

I understand your concern. Part of what I am saying is work within to change versus making anything public. Not that you would go public with dirty laundry, but I think that is what they are scared of. Work to change them (their opinions or some of them off the BOD) then open it up.
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Old 05-14-2014, 08:13 PM
 
10,553 posts, read 8,892,397 times
Reputation: 4771
[quote=TexasHorseLady;34804573]U.S. Copyright Office website, intellectual property attorneys on intellectual property forums I hang out on to learn (I'm not an attorney but I used to be a legal assistant so I can understand their language), research into copyright laws so that publications I've worked on don't violate them; quite a few places over the years. Where are you getting yours?[

/QUOTE]

I looked at Condo statutes in my state and didn't see anything about minutes being copy-righted.

I googled "Condominium meeting minutes copyright" and variations of that. If Condo Association minutes were copyrighted I would think it would have been stated on at least one website somewhere, but so far I haven't found it, which leads me to conclude that Minutes are not copyrighted. Minutes are a "record" of an event, in some ways no different than a reporter attending a press conference and then writing about it.

Information is not covered by copyright.

"Copyright refers to your right to claim ownership of a particular piece of "intellectual property." It also means that no one else can reproduce that work, sell it, or distribute it without your permission."
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Old 05-14-2014, 08:16 PM
 
238 posts, read 370,163 times
Reputation: 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by johngolf View Post
I understand your concern. Part of what I am saying is work within to change versus making anything public. Not that you would go public with dirty laundry, but I think that is what they are scared of. Work to change them (their opinions or some of them off the BOD) then open it up.
I will definitely work at it. My term ends in April and at this rate I don't think they'll reelect me.

Part of my concern is why the dirty laundry? Shouldn't it really be them working on getting that cleaned up??

And maybe that is after all my smoking gun. Or me pushing back sensing there is something amiss and also sensing their fear...and letting them know there are ways to broadcast this public information.

I still think it doesn't really gain me anything other than what I mentioned before - a descent HOA. I don't know what their motives have been or are in not wanting to distribute information.
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Old 05-14-2014, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,816 posts, read 41,113,224 times
Reputation: 24410
[quote=ellemint;34805790]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
U.S. Copyright Office website, intellectual property attorneys on intellectual property forums I hang out on to learn (I'm not an attorney but I used to be a legal assistant so I can understand their language), research into copyright laws so that publications I've worked on don't violate them; quite a few places over the years. Where are you getting yours?[

/QUOTE]

I looked at Condo statutes in my state and didn't see anything about minutes being copy-righted.

I googled "Condominium meeting minutes copyright" and variations of that. If Condo Association minutes were copyrighted I would think it would have been stated on at least one website somewhere, but so far I haven't found it, which leads me to conclude that Minutes are not copyrighted. Minutes are a "record" of an event, in some ways no different than a reporter attending a press conference and then writing about it.

Information is not covered by copyright.

"Copyright refers to your right to claim ownership of a particular piece of "intellectual property." It also means that no one else can reproduce that work, sell it, or distribute it without your permission."
Information is not covered by copyright is absolutely correct. The FORM that information is in is, however, covered.

For example, recipes are not protected by copyright, even if you made up the recipe yourself. However, the form that the recipes are in - the exact wording - IS copyrightable. Cookbooks are copyrightable because they are a compilation of information by someone put into a specific form.

It would be very difficult to put the information in the specific HOA docs into a different form and have them still be accurate and useful.

The Condo statutes would not, by the way, cover copyright - there is no reason for them to (and, by the way, it has not been necessary for donkey's years for the little copyright symbol to be on something for it to be copyrighted or for it to be registered in order to be, though registration makes it easier to prove ownership in court - all the creator has to do to own copyright is to create it. The statutes themselves cannot be copyrighted because they are a government document created by a government agency - in your case, I'm thinking you probably found the state Condo statutes. But copyright law is not Condo law - it is a federal law protecting intellectual property, and information on it would be found, among many other places, on the U.S. Copyright Office website.
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Old 05-14-2014, 09:17 PM
 
10,553 posts, read 8,892,397 times
Reputation: 4771
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxboro82 View Post
I will definitely work at it. My term ends in April and at this rate I don't think they'll reelect me.

Part of my concern is why the dirty laundry? Shouldn't it really be them working on getting that cleaned up??

And maybe that is after all my smoking gun. Or me pushing back sensing there is something amiss and also sensing their fear...and letting them know there are ways to broadcast this public information.

I still think it doesn't really gain me anything other than what I mentioned before - a descent HOA. I don't know what their motives have been or are in not wanting to distribute information.

Here is a link to a website in which an individual describes how he went about doing what you are proposing to do. It's not just about how to build a website, but addresses some of the issues you've been raising (I think.):


Build a Website
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Old 05-14-2014, 09:54 PM
 
5,048 posts, read 8,421,276 times
Reputation: 4167
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxboro82 View Post
I will definitely work at it. My term ends in April and at this rate I don't think they'll reelect me.

Part of my concern is why the dirty laundry? Shouldn't it really be them working on getting that cleaned up??

And maybe that is after all my smoking gun. Or me pushing back sensing there is something amiss and also sensing their fear...and letting them know there are ways to broadcast this public information.

I still think it doesn't really gain me anything other than what I mentioned before - a descent HOA. I don't know what their motives have been or are in not wanting to distribute information.
Noted your zip. If you haven't read it, you might look at this and be sure your board and manager are abiding by these laws. Just wondering what the secrecy is about. Perhaps it's in here:

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/SOTWDocs/PR/htm/PR.209.htm

If you have joined CAI, you'll note there are regulations on managers and manager licensing:

http://www.caionline.org/govt/managerlicensing/Pages/default.aspx
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Old 05-14-2014, 09:59 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
282 posts, read 403,499 times
Reputation: 470
There's a lot of information missing here, but let me point out something important. If you serve on a board, you owe a fiduciary duty to the entity on whose board you serve. That duty has several sub-duties, but two in particular are important here: the duty of loyalty and the duty of obedience.

While those two words tend to make people's eyes bug out, they aren't as creepy as they sound. The duty of loyalty means that your allegiance is to the entity, and you cannot take any business or financial opportunity that rightfully belongs to the entity. I'm not clear on who the "he" is that you keep referring to. If "he" is a fellow board member, "he" should not be personally profiting from the HOA's documents if "he" is selling them for his personal profit. If, however, "he" is in fact the HOA, then if the HOA obtains income for the HOA from those documents, then if you usurp then for your own website, you are violating the duty of loyalty by foreclosing that financial opportunity for the HOA. And if "he" is the management company, and the HOA has granted the management company the right to sell the documents, that is the same as the HOA selling them. The HOA has simply given the management company a means of income that does not come out of HOA dues. Which means the HOA members benefit because they don't have to directly pay that portion of the management company's fees from their dues.

Now, whether selling the documents is a good idea or not is another matter entirely. I don't know if it is or not. It is, in fact, up to the board to decide that. It sounds like they decided that it is. If that is the decision of the board, and you are a member of the board, that's where the duty of obedience comes in. You can, and should, argue as hard as you can for your point of view in a board discussion. But once the board reaches a decision, your duty of obedience means that you need to go along with that decision. Essentially, as long as their decision is not illegal, your choices are to abide by it or resign if you feel strongly enough. What you cannot do is defy it--that is a breach of your fiduciary duty.
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