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You can't ask about the morality of a behavior while then advocating an "every man for himself" mentality. The problem with moral behavior is that sometimes it might cause you to make some sacrifice. The right thing to do is not always the profitable thing to do. If you are looking for some type of justification to discriminate, you won't get it from me.
Furthermore, it's not like you are citing actuarial research that definitively shows that one group is more costly than another, you are relying on anecdotal observation which is in itself subject to a huge amount of bias. People are more likely to remember experiences that confirm their own biases. Also, since most landlords are white, it's much easier to attribute bad behavior to another group and ignore it in ones similar to yourself. It's just human nature.
Show me a scientifically rigorous study that shows that blacks are worse than whites of similar education level and income and then MAYBE we can talk. But to rely on anecdotal evidence to systematically discriminate against an entire group of people that has a long history of being discriminated against, is the furthest thing from "moral" that I can think of.
But I guess that's where the debate lies. "Right thing to do" is pretty subjective - like a lot of moral matters.
And of course I didn't provide actuarial data or scientific studies. I was giving a hypothetical specific to the case outlined in my first post. Anecdotal observations shape the way many of us live our lives in the real world...a world where stats and research don't always apply to everyone's specific situation or neighborhood. How would one even obtain a scientific study on the rental behavior of working class blacks vs whites? I guess one could look at crime rates/prison population and get an idea, but I doubt crime stats record a person's economic position. The best way to get any idea is probably asking landlords.
I lost my handle on what your question was, so decided to quote your OP and take a look at it again.
1) Is it racist to prefer renting to whites, when you have found them to be less of a problem for you?
Personally, I think it's normal. Mexicans probably prefer renting to Mexicans, Chinese to Chinese, Vietnamese to Vietnamese, Indians to Indians.
I think it's a cultural thing. People are more comfortable within their own culture.
For instance, I find the Mexican culture, overall, to be a very noisy culture. I actually lived in Mexico for a year, and was astonished at how noisy it is! They are very social, have lots of get-togethers and make lots of noise just talking, laughing, and playing music and dancing. They don't complain about noisy neighbors. They accept it as part of their culture. At least this was my experience.
Now, you put a normal, noisy Mexican family in with a bunch of white seniors, and you will have problems. If the complex is all Mexicans, you probably won't.
I have found the African American culture to also be very social and noisy. Same with Italians. They kind of holler at each other a lot. For them, it's normal.
As a female property manager, I found some cultures harder to deal with than others, because I was a woman. So, I admit, if I had a male applicant from a certain region of the world, I would cringe and hope they didn't meet the requirements. I knew that I would not get respect from that tenant, because of his culture.
So, I really think it's more of a cultural thing. It's tricky putting a bunch of people from different cultures into close quarters. There are bound to be clashes. It's just human nature.
So, no, I don't think it's morally wrong to prefer one culture to another. I think it's normal, human nature.
You already said you realize it's against the law to discriminate because of a person's race, but I honestly don't fault you for preferring one over another. I like a quiet home, though I love my Mexican friends and love to go to their parties. But, I sure am glad to be able to go home to a quiet apartment - far away from their noisy house lol!
2) Should you not think of the stats and give everyone an equal opportunity. Well, you have to, unless you want Fair Housing up your butt. And trust me, they do send testers. I can always spot a fair housing tester, as they never ask normal questions or worry about how big the closet is or where they would park. They're not good at faking to be an applicant. But, if they send a white applicant and a black applicant and you treat them differently, you are in a world of hurt.
And I do agree with you that certain races or types of tenants are more likely to have certain kinds of issues. For instance, single mothers on welfare will almost always have screaming fights with the baby daddy. This is from personal experience. No, I couldn't discriminate against her because she had a kid, or where she gets her income, if she otherwise qualifies. But, I would cringe, knowing there would probably be police calls, multiple written warnings, and probably end up giving her a 30 day notice to move for noise problems. Does that mean 100% of single mothers on welfare will do this? No. But, the odds are very great that that will be what happens.
Some cultures believe that if they give a landlord money, that equates the landlord to a "servant" or "employee" basically, and they believe they have the right to boss you around or blow off your attempts to explain rules and deadlines, etc. They are way higher maintenance.
Is the above politically correct? No. We're supposed to pretend we are comfortable with all cultures. But, we're not. And I would question anyone who says otherwise. We all prefer to be with people who speak our language, who get our jokes, who understand our body language or hints, or feels the same things are rude or uncomfortable, who have the same idea of what is a normal "personal space."
Just think about when you stand in line at the post office, and someone from a different culture is so close behind you that their breathing is moving your hair. If you turned around, you'd be kissing. Their idea of personal space is totally different from yours or mine, for instance.
So, you can't legally discriminate, and you already said you know that. Is it morally wrong to prefer to rent to one culture over another? No. It's human. We're not saints. We all just want to be comfortable and have less hassles in our lives.
It's not politically correct. But, it's real.
Wow,you do not seem to understand the difference between race,nationality,culture,and ethnicity.
Those Mexicans and blacks are your fellow Americans.
i find no difference between white and black southerners for instance.
OK, I know I will be blasted, but here is my real world experience in this.
As a young man (30 or more years ago) I managed a 108 unit building and across the street was a complex of about the same size. I am white, the other manager was black. It was a strange bit of geography, because there were these two complexes, and nothing else in the area. My building was mostly white tennants, with few problems, his building was mostly black tennants, with few problems.
We were discussing problem tennants one day, and discovered we had the opposite problem; he generally had problems only with white tennants, and I generally had problems only with black tennants - the conversation went something like each of us asking the other "why do you rent to all those (black/white) dirtbags?" As we discussed the issue, it became clear he had now idea how to screen whites, and I had no idea how to screen blacks. Our solution would likely land me in jail today, but he screened my black applicants as a "second" interveiw, and I did the same for his white applicants. Within 3 months we had integrated complexes with almost no problems with either race in either complex.
The cops came when one of my tennants passed of natural causes, and one of the cops pulled me aside and "thanked" me and my counterpart for cleaning up the neighborhood. Apparantly, 1 year before it had the highest violent crime rate in the city with numerous assaults on cops responding to calls. It now had the lowest rate of calls, and no incedents of cop assaults in over 6 months.
My take away is not that you don't rent to ________ ethnic background, you rent to good people (they come in all flavors!), the challenge is, if you have limited interactions with another group (whatever the race/ethnicity/background), it makes it hard to sort through who's good people and who's bad people - I know that was my problem some 30 years ago. I am not sure that ignorance (in this case) is the same thing as bigotry, but I am certain that confirmation bias can create bigotry out of this type of ignorance.
Just my two cents
Another honest example of real world happenings. Thank you. And like the other poster mentioned, some of us aren't as comfortable with other cultures vs our own. This may make it harder to screen certain tenants which could cause an unproportional amount of problems with that culture/race. I used to work with a lot of black kids with severe behavioral problems and often I would see white workers struggling to communicate/reason/explain things to them whereas a black employee could come over and say "gurl come over here and let me holla atcha" - after 10 minutes of talking the kid would calm down and start acting more rational.
You can't ask about the morality of a behavior while then advocating an "every man for himself" mentality. The problem with moral behavior is that sometimes it might cause you to make some sacrifice. The right thing to do is not always the profitable thing to do. If you are looking for some type of justification to discriminate, you won't get it from me.
Furthermore, it's not like you are citing actuarial research that definitively shows that one group is more costly than another, you are relying on anecdotal observation which is in itself subject to a huge amount of bias. People are more likely to remember experiences that confirm their own biases. Also, since most landlords are white, it's much easier to attribute bad behavior to another group and ignore it in ones similar to yourself. It's just human nature.
Show me a scientifically rigorous study that shows that blacks are worse than whites of similar education level and income and then MAYBE we can talk. But to rely on anecdotal evidence to systematically discriminate against an entire group of people that has a long history of being discriminated against, is the furthest thing from "moral" that I can think of.
Quote:
But to rely on anecdotal evidence to systematically discriminate against an entire group of people that has a long history of being discriminated against, is the furthest thing from "moral" that I can think of.
Oh come on.
That's the excuse?
Reality is what it is for those who aren't going to pay money to "survey" their tenants of any color/culture to find out the "why" behind the actions or inactions or their tenants or consumer base. And to hire an actuary to get actuarial conclusions? Please.
Why do so many try to pass over experience (long term experience) as "anecdotal" evidence?
It comes down to experience and that experience comes from situations that repeat themselves over and over and over again.
It may not be politically correct, but political correctness is a bunch of feel-good BS perpetrated by those who have really have NO idea why their panties are all bunched up. They just like how it feels...it's gives them something to whine about.
I will never rent to international students from China again. Only took two group of tenants from China to figure that out.
So sue me when I pass over a bunch of Chinese international students trying to rent a unit of mine.
Is it morally correct? I really don't give a ****, because I know how it's going to work out , and I'm over it.
It's a business, not a charity or a social experiment.
For landlords, I know it's illegal to discriminate based on race, but is it morally or logically wrong in some cases?
Lets say someone owns 1000 working class properties and they have problems (not paying rent, vandalism, police being called, etc) with 15% of their renters (150 homes) at any given time. Lets also assume that of that 15%, blacks are overrepresented by a large margin. Everyone is screened equally prior to moving in.
After a few years of this, do you feel it's racist for this person to then prefer renting to whites who are statistically less likely to cause problems?
Should this person not even think of the stats/race and give everyone an equal opportunity to prove themselves?
Do you know any landlords that make race an issue?
The landlord that does this failed basic math classes, might be a borderline simpleton that can't tie shoes or perform simple tasks.
It's late so I will observe only this much: white racism wont end tonight. Tomorrow, a white landlord is going to turn away another black family and put a white family in his vacancy. That white family will turn out to be his worst nightmare come true. The black family will also eventually find a place to live. They will turn out to be model tenants. C'est la vie.
Reality is what it is for those who aren't going to pay money to "survey" their tenants of any color/culture to find out the "why" behind the actions or inactions or their tenants or consumer base. And to hire an actuary to get actuarial conclusions? Please.
Why do so many try to pass over experience (long term experience) as "anecdotal" evidence?
It comes down to experience and that experience comes from situations that repeat themselves over and over and over again.
It may not be politically correct, but political correctness is a bunch of feel-good BS perpetrated by those who have really have NO idea why their panties are all bunched up. They just like how it feels...it's gives them something to whine about.
I will never rent to international students from China again. Only took two group of tenants from China to figure that out.
So sue me when I pass over a bunch of Chinese international students trying to rent a unit of mine.
Is it morally correct? I really don't give a ****, because I know how it's going to work out , and I'm over it.
It's a business, not a charity or a social experiment.
So what happened with the international students from China?
We once rented to a German engineer. He moved his daughter, her boyfriend and their collection of kids in and wrecked the place. In the year they lived there, they broke nearly every appliance, drilled holes in the walls to ruin speaker and cable wires, ruined the carpet. When the year lease was up, he was an arrogant patoot about moving out.
I don't care what the law says, I will never rent to another German engineer. I've had it.
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