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You can ignore my point about people making offers that impact third party contracts every single day all you want, but my intention was never to do anything other than make the Seller's Realtor whole, and then some. What would the damages be? Either you accept my offer, making the Realtor better off than he would have been if I had just made an equivalent offer through an agent OR you refuse my offer and nothing changes.
[Name of plaintiff] claims that [name of defendant] intentionally interfered with the contract between [him/her/it] and [name of third party]. To establish this claim, [name of plaintiff] must prove all of the following:
1. That there was a contract between [name of plaintiff] and [name of third party];
2. That [name of defendant] knew of the contract;
3. That [name of defendant] intended to disrupt the performance of this contract;Key word! Performance.
4. That [name of defendant]’s conduct prevented performance or made performance more expensive or difficult; Making an offer could never "prevent" performance or make it more expensive or difficult.
5. That [name of plaintiff] was harmed; and You can't be harmed if my suggestion would make you better off than an alternative you would have gladly accepted.
6. That [name of defendant]’s conduct was a substantial factor in causing [name of plaintiff]’s harm.
New September 2003
“It is not enough that the actor intended to perform the acts which caused the result—he or she must have intended to cause the result itself.” (Kasparian v. County of Los Angeles (1995) 38 Cal.App.4th 242, 261 [45 Cal.Rptr.2d 90].) Since my intention is clearly to create a situation where the Seller's Rep is better off than he would be, even if things fall apart and they split up as a result, that isn't my problem.
To be clear, this is what I cited, and has been conveniently ignored.
I agree that my motivation is purely out of self interest, but that does not exclude the possibility that the Realtor would be better off if my offer is accepted than he would be in a scenario he would consider perfectly acceptable performance of the contract.
Yes, I would be COMPLETELY fine if I had a contract to... say... have someone mow their lawn for $20, then someone else came in and suggested they renegotiate the contract with me to pay me $10 to release them from their obligations in the contract.
As long as the third party is making me better off than a situation that I agree would be considered fulfillment of the contract, why would I complain?
Are you seriously suggesting that it is actionable whenever anyone makes an offer to two parties that are engaged in a contract, requiring the dissolution of the contract?
If you feel that you being paid part of the listing agent's commission is perfectly acceptable to them and would be to their benefit, here's how you do it and have it NOT be interference.
Again, you do NOT go to the seller in any way, shape or form.
You go to the listing agent, and you make your proposal that they take a portion of the funds that they will receive and give it to you because you want it, it's to your benefit. You can make your case as to why you think that them giving you their money (because it IS their money, paid to them by the seller, per the contract they have with the seller), benefits them. If you present a good enough argument by THEIR reasoning, NOT YOURS, then they may agree to do that, but the original contract with the seller remains the same and you have not interfered with it.
You do, of course, run the risk that your argument won't be convincing to the listing agent.
That does not then make it right for you to then go to the seller or to write into an offer that you know must, by law, be presented to the seller by the listing agent, your proposal as an attempt to get leverage against the listing agent and force them to agree to your proposal. At that point, in my opinion, you're interfering in the contract.
But you inserted yourself into a discussion about that talking point.
Regardless, could you give the details of that example? That is the closest thing I have heard to actual evidence, so I am honestly curious regarding the details.
I inserted myself only because SOMEONE had to. See what I get for my service to humanity and the internet!
I will not give good details. Mostly because I cannot remember them well enough. But IIRC, I asked the attorney if she could inquire regarding whether a buyer and seller would mutually agree to vacate a contract so my client could engage.
If you feel that you being paid part of the listing agent's commission is perfectly acceptable to them and would be to their benefit, here's how you do it and have it NOT be interference.
Again, you do NOT go to the seller in any way, shape or form.
You go to the listing agent, and you make your proposal that they take a portion of the funds that they will receive and give it to you because you want it, it's to your benefit. You can make your case as to why you think that them giving you their money (because it IS their money, paid to them by the seller, per the contract they have with the seller), benefits them. If you present a good enough argument by THEIR reasoning, NOT YOURS, then they may agree to do that, but the original contract with the seller remains the same and you have not interfered with it.
You do, of course, run the risk that your argument won't be convincing to the listing agent.
That does not then make it right for you to then go to the seller or to write into an offer that you know must, by law, be presented to the seller by the listing agent, your proposal as an attempt to get leverage against the listing agent and force them to agree to your proposal. At that point, in my opinion, you're interfering in the contract.
Is that clear?
First, it isn't their money yet. There is no money yet. They are not giving me anything, because it doesn't exist. However, I can see why it would be more polite for me to go to the agent and suggest it work that way. That being said, I still don't think you have even attempted to explain WHY what I am doing meets the clear standard I cited.
It isn't like I am going to the seller and saying, "I will be your Realtor for $100 less than your current guy and he isn't going to sue you over it." THAT would clearly be interference in the performance of the contract.
I would REALLY like it if you could actually address my point, clearly made through my citation of the requirements. I try and directly answer your questions, why do you insist on talking around mine? (I noticed you called it your opinion this time)
To be clear, I usually frame it this way:
"I am offering $99,000 for the house, without a buyers agent. Because I am not using a buyer's agent, your Realtor will not have to pay (estimate) $2,500 to my Realtor. This offer, assuming your Realtor refunds you half the $2,500 (OK, my math is usually more precise, but you get the idea) he otherwise would owe to my Realtor, is a higher net to you than a $100,000 offer would be."
Fresh from the press
My family member asked me to be his translator, and he is in process of looking for a house. I contacted 5 listing agents asking to show their properties. Non of them asked if we work with any real estate agents!
When we showed up to each appointment, I made it clear to the listing agent we are not using him/her as our agent and don't want him/her to represent our interests. WOW! You had to see their faces! They were SO happy to work with us for double commission.... and we turned them down.
Two out of 5 agents offered us a discount in the form of discussing lower fee on their end with the seller. Well, we are talking about 400K price range and one of agent's discount was $5K. Are you for real I asked her (nicely) - she supposed to get 3% ($12K) and because she was so nice, she agreed to take $5K less... and work for the total of $19K (where $7K is for representing us!)
When I made it clear I want her to be on the seller's side only, she basically told me it wont make a difference for her and she will not be bringing our offer to the seller if it's less than asking price. LOL. It was something!
Of course every single agent offered their services in case their house is not working for us.
What surprised me is the lack of information about THEIR listing properties! All they knew was the floor plan layout. Really? I guess average buyer cannot figure out if certain area is an office or bedroom or even bathroom... Some houses had obvious leakage issues (partially replaced drywalls inside and fixed and repainted stucco outside) but agent claimed "no issues and everything is like new". Come on! You must be aware of something...
No specific questions were answered (related to the house or community rules).
When I was leaving from each appointment I had a feeling I am in the wrong business...
So far claiming no agent didn't help us. I let two agents know they have a week to think about it and get back to us. We are not in seller's market, so who knows if they would change their mind. But I can tell for sure - if you want to pissed listing agent, told him you don't want him to represent you
Two out of 5 agents offered us a discount in the form of discussing lower fee on their end with the seller. Well, we are talking about 400K price range and one of agent's discount was $5K. Are you for real I asked her (nicely) - she supposed to get 3% ($12K) and because she was so nice, she agreed to take $5K less... and work for the total of $19K (where $7K is for representing us!)
Actually, 5k isn't that far off from what I would expect. Let's keep in mind that on a property that large they may only be getting a 5% commission.
Even with the 6% commission, half of that is only 12k, so they were giving you more than a third of the buyer's agent's commission. If their agreement was for 5%, they were giving you half.
I may have tried to get a little more, but they were not being completely unreasonable. Assuming you knew for sure it would have been 12k for the buyers rep, keep in mind the Realtor does have to do additional work, I wouldn't even think of asking for more than 8k of it. You need to give the Realtor something for her extra work, and you want her invested in getting this deal done, with you. I know it sounds a little shady, and maybe it is, but you know that the Realtor is going to be invested in the seller taking your offer if you are only asking for the 8k. If you are trying to recapture all of it, you are essentially making it more work for the Realtor, and not giving her any additional money for it. How do you think she is going to (consciously or unconsciously) steer her client?
Actually, 5k isn't that far off from what I would expect. Let's keep in mind that on a property that large they may only be getting a 5% commission.
Even with the 6% commission, half of that is only 12k, so they were giving you more than a third of the buyer's agent's commission. If their agreement was for 5%, they were giving you half.
I may have tried to get a little more, but they were not being completely unreasonable. Assuming you knew for sure it would have been 12k for the buyers rep, keep in mind the Realtor does have to do additional work, I wouldn't even think of asking for more than 8k of it. You need to give the Realtor something for her extra work, and you want her invested in getting this deal done, with you. I know it sounds a little shady, and maybe it is, but you know that the Realtor is going to be invested in the seller taking your offer if you are only asking for the 8k. If you are trying to recapture all of it, you are essentially making it more work for the Realtor, and not giving her any additional money for it. How do you think she is going to (consciously or unconsciously) steer her client?
Can you justify that her work would cost that much? I don't. This is her best interest to sell this house and get paid. She can claim $1-2-3K for my "representation". But $7K - no way.
It all comes to the point that the amount of work agent does for $100K house vs. $500K is pretty much the same...
And I was not asking her to represent us. She is under contract with the seller and represent his interests. She even demonstrated it by hiding leakage issues from us. She didn't drive us around and didn't help with house hunting... she is not entitled for anything for our representation.
And yes, the deal is 3% to listing and 3% to buyers agent.
Besides that, when I am talking about $400K property, $5K in price doesn't make a difference really, Even if I had my agent I would never agreed to offer a full asking...
How she would make her client to accept our offer is her personal problem. House is on the market for 6 months with one price drop (1% LOL) and no other interest. It's overpriced. I think she is not doing a good job by not explaining her client he cannot expect high dollar for a property that priced well above all recent sales with better lots/ upgrades.
I learned not to fell in love with houses and this is exactly what I told my relative. Let them worry out their price.
Can you justify that her work would cost that much? I don't. This is her best interest to sell this house and get paid. She can claim $1-2-3K for my "representation". But $7K - no way.
It all comes to the point that the amount of work agent does for $100K house vs. $500K is pretty much the same...
And I was not asking her to represent us. She is under contract with the seller and represent his interests. She even demonstrated it by hiding leakage issues from us. She didn't drive us around and didn't help with house hunting... she is not entitled for anything for our representation.
And yes, the deal is 3% to listing and 3% to buyers agent.
Besides that, when I am talking about $400K property, $5K in price doesn't make a difference really, Even if I had my agent I would never agreed to offer a full asking...
1) Implicit in the fact that they are giving a discount of 5k to the seller is that you will have a 5k lower price, which costs them $300 off the top. It isn't peanuts, it is real money, and needs to be added into the formulas.
2) I would estimate there will be at least 10 hours of work for the agent that she would otherwise be done by your agent.
3) Like it or not, a lot of people that want to work without agents have no idea what they are doing, so she is probably thinking she is going to have to do even more work to walk you through the process.
4) She (gosh, I think you said it was a woman???) doesn't know you from Adam. She has people to complain to if another agent starts jerking her around. If you do, she is on her own, so she needs a little compensation for that risk.
All in all, she is saving 12k if you skip the Realtor. A 5k rebate wasn't a crazy lowball, but I wouldn't suggest she negotiate with herself either. Did you lay out the math and suggest a (making up a number here) 10k rebate, making her net a little less than 2k more than she probably expected?
I should also be clear, was she saying she would only give the 5k if you offered the list price? That throws an entirely different wrench into it.
Just be careful... As much as I tend to get into arguments with Realtors, they serve a very important function. Be sure to objectively evaluate the risk of not going with a rep vs the gain. The math isn't as lopsided as you might think.
First, it isn't their money yet. There is no money yet. They are not giving me anything, because it doesn't exist. However, I can see why it would be more polite for me to go to the agent and suggest it work that way. That being said, I still don't think you have even attempted to explain WHY what I am doing meets the clear standard I cited.
It isn't like I am going to the seller and saying, "I will be your Realtor for $100 less than your current guy and he isn't going to sue you over it." THAT would clearly be interference in the performance of the contract.
I would REALLY like it if you could actually address my point, clearly made through my citation of the requirements. I try and directly answer your questions, why do you insist on talking around mine? (I noticed you called it your opinion this time)
To be clear, I usually frame it this way:
"I am offering $99,000 for the house, without a buyers agent. Because I am not using a buyer's agent, your Realtor will not have to pay (estimate) $2,500 to my Realtor. This offer, assuming your Realtor refunds you half the $2,500 (OK, my math is usually more precise, but you get the idea) he otherwise would owe to my Realtor, is a higher net to you than a $100,000 offer would be."
It's simple. Really it is. By going to the seller with this, you are attempting to interfere in the contract between the seller and the listing agent (to whom the seller has contractually agreed to pay a specific percentage of the commission, which the listing agent is free to do with as he pleases). You don't want to admit this, and I can understand why (among other things, you are not as likely to get the listing agent to agree to it as you can to get the seller to pressure the listing agent into agreeing to it), but it is, in fact, the case.
And I'm not talking about "polite", I'm talking about ethical. Which is, frankly, more important.
1) Implicit in the fact that they are giving a discount of 5k to the seller is that you will have a 5k lower price, which costs them $300 off the top. It isn't peanuts, it is real money, and needs to be added into the formulas.
2) I would estimate there will be at least 10 hours of work for the agent that she would otherwise be done by your agent.
3) Like it or not, a lot of people that want to work without agents have no idea what they are doing, so she is probably thinking she is going to have to do even more work to walk you through the process.
4) She (gosh, I think you said it was a woman???) doesn't know you from Adam. She has people to complain to if another agent starts jerking her around. If you do, she is on her own, so she needs a little compensation for that risk.
All in all, she is saving 12k if you skip the Realtor. A 5k rebate wasn't a crazy lowball, but I wouldn't suggest she negotiate with herself either. Did you lay out the math and suggest a (making up a number here) 10k rebate, making her net a little less than 2k more than she probably expected?
I should also be clear, was she saying she would only give the 5k if you offered the list price? That throws an entirely different wrench into it.
Just be careful... As much as I tend to get into arguments with Realtors, they serve a very important function. Be sure to objectively evaluate the risk of not going with a rep vs the gain. The math isn't as lopsided as you might think.
So far she has no choice (looks like) really... her options are to go with us or to keep listing this property for who knows how long. School is only 3 weeks away, so most people who wanted to moved there already moved...
The way she was talking to us (and I get this, she represents seller and she is a sales person after all) - there were absolutely no negotiation on the price. She ASSUMED we will be offering full asking. I didn't go into details with her yet because she needs to make a decision if she is on board with us or not. When I mentioned to her the all flooring must be re-done in order to move in and it will cost $$, she got where I was heading but offered housekeeping to come over and clean all floors...
Since I am not the one who is in charge there, I just use this situation as an entertainment aka buying without an agent and see where it goes.
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