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Old 10-20-2015, 10:38 PM
 
6 posts, read 4,877 times
Reputation: 15

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Here's my question:
Are new constructions --kitchen and bathroom-- in cellar illegal if you got a permit for them?

Scenario:
i'm trying to sell a four family house with a cellar that has a kitchen and bathroom- that were put in in 1976. We got a permit for it at that point. We still have the permit stamped and all. However, we don't have a certificate of occupancy for the house which was constructed before 1938.

problem:
On the buyers final walk through he says the bathroom and kitchen are illegal. Its understandable that he things that since there is no record of the permits online, because the work was done about 40 years ago. I haven't shown him the permits yet. I just want to be certain they carry weight without the certificate of occupancy.

Questions:
1) Are the new constructions -kitchen and bathroom- automatically legal simply because we got a permit?
2) does not having a certificate of occupancy make it invalid or illegal?
3) should i try and get proof from the state office or should i just lower the price for the buyer so that he'll take it as is and fix it himself?

Any thoughts would be welcome!!
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Old 10-21-2015, 05:01 AM
 
Location: Lakewood Ranch, FL
5,663 posts, read 10,707,643 times
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I doubt anyone has a CO from 1938! If you have a permit, you should be good to go. I'd just have your agent send a copy to the buyer's agent if it is a concern. I might be wrong but I don't see an issue here. Did you ask your agent?

You said this was the final walk thru so are you closing today or are they trying to get out of the closing? You might look over your contract again and pay particular attention to the Buyer Default section.

Last edited by bbronston; 10-21-2015 at 05:16 AM..
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Old 10-21-2015, 05:18 AM
 
Location: Black Hammock Island
4,620 posts, read 14,951,500 times
Reputation: 4620
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbronston View Post
I doubt anyone has a CO from 1938! If you have a permit, you should be good to go. I'd just have your agent send a copy to the buyer's agent if it is a concern. I might be wrong but I don't see an issue here. Did you ask your agent?
I agree. My (nonprofessional) opinion is that if the basement kitchen and bath were fully permitted in 1976 (and the official documentation exists), then even if they may not be up to today's codes/standards they would still be legal.

I wonder if the buyer meant "not up to code" rather than "illegal"? Either way, it's odd that this would come up during the final walkthrough and not during the inspection period nor during the appraisal. It's my opinion (again nonprofessional) that if this was a final walkthrough and closing is occurring shortly that the due diligence period to renegotiate price is long past.
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Old 10-21-2015, 05:23 AM
 
1,680 posts, read 2,541,568 times
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Back in 1984 my mother sold her house. There was an open permit from the late 1940's concerning wiring for electric out to the garage. She had to bring the electric box up to current code before she could complete the sale.
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Old 10-21-2015, 05:29 AM
 
6 posts, read 4,877 times
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Hi bbronston, thanks for your response!

That was my thinking too. However, the real estate agent and also the real estate lawyer think we should just pay -or drop the price- the buyer to fix it because they think the "documents are old" (from 1976). I'm assuming that they feel its a hustle to prove/they just want to hurry up and make their money...

You think I have I have a case even though the papers date from 1976?
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Old 10-21-2015, 05:34 AM
 
6 posts, read 4,877 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mawipafl View Post
I agree. My (nonprofessional) opinion is that if the basement kitchen and bath were fully permitted in 1976 (and the official documentation exists), then even if they may not be up to today's codes/standards they would still be legal.

I wonder if the buyer meant "not up to code" rather than "illegal"? Either way, it's odd that this would come up during the final walkthrough and not during the inspection period nor during the appraisal. It's my opinion (again nonprofessional) that if this was a final walkthrough and closing is occurring shortly that the due diligence period to renegotiate price is long past.
Thanks for your response mawpafl.

Thats what I'm thinking. Thanks. I will clarify with the buyer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mary2014 View Post
Back in 1984 my mother sold her house. There was an open permit from the late 1940's concerning wiring for electric out to the garage. She had to bring the electric box up to current code before she could complete the sale.
Mary2014 thanks for your response.

hmm. By open permit I'm assuming you mean the construction wasn't completed or done in the 40's?
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Old 10-21-2015, 05:39 AM
 
6 posts, read 4,877 times
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I got a reputation message that seemed to go into detail about permits and their validity. I cant seem to find it now. Could whoever sent it please resend it?
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Old 10-21-2015, 05:40 AM
 
Location: Black Hammock Island
4,620 posts, read 14,951,500 times
Reputation: 4620
What needs to be "fixed"?

Also, regarding the permit, is it permission to build the rooms or permission "to occupy"? By this latter I mean that during the construction did city inspectors come in to check wiring, plumbing, etc., and sign off? Or as Mary2014 wrote concerning her mother's situation, is the permit still open even though 39 years have gone by?
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Old 10-21-2015, 05:53 AM
 
6 posts, read 4,877 times
Reputation: 15
By fix, I mean remove the kitchen or restore it to its original state - since he thinks its illegal.

The permit is a permission to construct the kitchen and a bathroom. Just for clarification, when you say the inspectors "signed off" do you mean before or after the job was done?
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Old 10-21-2015, 06:39 AM
 
Location: Morrisville, NC
9,141 posts, read 14,715,987 times
Reputation: 9053
Most municipalities only keep records going back so far. Some only like 7 years, at least in detail, so finding anything from 1976 is going to be pretty hard, much less 1938. I guess it depends on how badly you need this buyer, but sounds like BS to me and they're trying to beat you down/get new stuff worth more than they are paying.
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