Potential boundary dispute - how are surveys done today when yesteryear's markers are gone? (investment, insurance)

[mawipafl]

Disclaimer :-) I'm not a surveyor nor real estate expert, but I can look at a survey and understand its symbols and drawings. I just might not use the proper lingo.

Question: if survey markers and reference points no longer exist, how can a lot of land be surveyed to show proper boundaries?

The following is a novel, so I'll take answers in a general form or if you want to read the specifics, maybe you have more specific answers.

Massachusetts.

1964/65: a 47-home development was plotted out and surveyed. We have a copy of the plan (as well as the ability to see it filed in the registry of deeds which is the same as our copy). There were 20 lots on the main road into the development and 27 lots on the oval section at the back of the development (with lots on the inside of the oval and on the outside). The oval is bordered by railroad tracks on the northeast (house lots abutting) and a highway on the northwest (no lots abutting, but one lot's back corner is near the highway) and a wooded swamp with an open brook on the west (house lots abutting with easements in the backyards).

1966: one more lot was added, taken from the vacant land, and its back corner near the highway. The remaining vacant land was still nothing, no lot numbers, except that a 20' easement (more of a right-of-way) was added along the side of the newly laid-out lot (giving access to the swamp).

1967: my family purchased a lot - a nonsquare lot that abuts the railroad at the back, a back corner near the highway, and the vacant land on the side. Our house was built that year.

The development was built out in full by 1968-69.

1976: the vacant land, abutting the highway, was purchased from (unknown - there is a title issue) and subdivided into 2 lots. However, nothing could happen because there wasn't enough frontage nor the ability to create a new short deadend street because there still wouldn't be the required setbacks. Additionally the MaDEP had concerns because of the nearby wetlands. And the land didn't perk anyway.

2008: the 2 undeveloped lots were purchased, but still undevelopable as 2 lots.

2016: the 2 lots were sold again, but the buyer has now combined the lots into 1 (well, still in the paper process of that because of the title issue - somewhat of a cart before the horse with the city's a-ok). Construction of a single family house began in February.

This was the first time ever that something had actually occurred on the land. Up until now the only disturbances had been a few shovelfuls dug, numerous perk tests done. It's been an overgrown field forever (over the past 50 years brambles, maples, oaks, sumacs, locust, and other such things have taken root).

That's the backstory. What's now happening is a property line dispute.

To keep the field at bay for the past 50 years, my family has maintained our backyard by mowing along the field and tending to the grass. In some places we knowingly encroached about 1-2' beyond what we have always known as our property line (from the telephone pole at the street to the last post of the railroad's fence in the back corner). In some other places it was at the property line or even inside our line. No one said boo, and it's always been obvious that the mowed line is squiggly and not straight.

The previous owner of the vacant lots (the one who bought in 2008) put up a "required" snow fence in anticipation of developing the lots - he said something about delineating the properties because of contamination (what a plastic snow fence could do to prevent that is unknown). He flared out one part of the fence onto his land to accommodate my family's dog - this was one of the places that we had been tending and mowing. He also gave permission for the compost piles in the back corner of his lot. We knew these piles weren't on our land, but we'd been putting yard waste there for 50 years. Again, no one had ever said we couldn't.

The "problem" with this snow fence is that he didn't get a survey and was relying on what he saw on the 1964/65 plan and by what we said was the property line.

When the current owner began clearing the land it was without discrimination - his contractor started clearing everything up to where our lawn was. We asked him to stop because he was clearing out beyond the original scope of work which was to leave vegetation along the property line.

The next thing we knew there was a survey stake in our backyard purportedly showing the property line. Either this survey crew was way off or the original lot markings in 1964/65 were wrong. The stake puts parts of our trees on his land and reduces the side setback of our garage to under the zoning requirement of 15'.

The survey crew wasn't too friendly (probably because we weren't the clients). When we asked how they had determined the location for the nails they had put in the street, they waved in the direction of the highway as their point of reference. These nails are placed no where near property lines - just some kind of reference points of indeterminable origin.

We're not sure how the highway could have possibly given them anything to use as a starting point since there isn't much on the 1964/65 survey that references the highway. There are two markers near the back corner of our property which the survey crew did not use - they couldn't have because the markers have pricker bushes all around them which were not disturbed, and all the overgrowth prohibits a line of sight to them. From one of those markers the survey shows a length in feet and a compass direction to delineate the highway's boundary along the back of the vacant lots. There is no marker showing the end of the length.

The survey crew was seen doing some sighting at the other end of the oval roadway toward our end of the oval. However, we don't know what markers or reference points they could have been using. The stone bounds marked on the 1964/65 survey are no longer visible, and there's been no disturbance of grass as if the crew had found them.

When the vacant land was subdivided in 1976, the survey was a compilation of the 1964/65 development's plan and not a new drawing. We don't recall a full-instrument crew doing any work and we believe the vacant land was separated into 2 lots using math. There definitely were no new markers set to show the line between the 2 lots nor to mark any other boundaries.

Naturally we want to have our own survey done, but will we be faced with the same problem, that the stone bounds that were central to the 1964/65 survey and plan are no longer usable? What other methods can be used?

Is this possible ... two markers that are still present are the highway ones near the back corner of our lot. From one of those markers we know that the land now being developed goes for 14.96' along the railroad tracks. Staking that would mark our back corner and his for certain. We also know that the run to the street is 269.49'. Would a surveyor be able to measure that exact distance to see where that point ends up near the telephone pole at the street to mark the front corners of our properties?

The sad thing about all this is we're talking about such a narrow strip of land. However, when the time comes for him to start grading the land to prepare for landscaping, that's when it will get sticky. At the moment our property and his both slope down to a meeting point, and these slopes and gully cannot remain. But the landowner is just a developer, building the house on spec, so he doesn't have a huge stake in this - he'll just do whatever in order to sell the house. So, it's best to get this settled now.

[Tac-Sea]

Maybe you should hire a surveyor and ask THEM this question, as I suspect they run into this issue all the time....Food for thought...

[robr2]

Typically there are known makers that surveyors begin from and then they work towards your property.

I had my lot surveyed this past spring. The surveyor started up the street and hammered a metal rod in the middle of the street (with a triangle painted around it) and a corresponding stake in my yard to work from. He then measured to one corner and using a metal detector found an existing metal rod under the grass denoting the corner. He then worked from there and placed metal rods at the other 3 corners. i wonder if the rod in the street can now be used by other surveyors as it is an officially placed marker?

If there are two markers present they may use them to double check their work but they will most likely start from a known fixed point. Also your neighbor's survey should now be in the town or county files - go check it out.

[oldtrader]

Sometimes the reference points that are used as a starting point, may be even a mile or more from the property. Those will be permanent markers/monuments that are accessible to all surveyors. The starting point for doing a survey will be in the land description. And there may be several reference points to actually get to the property being surveyed. That would be the reason for those nails.

The surveyors will know what to use as a starting point, as they are recorded as a public record (where they are located).

From 1972 till I finally retired, I was an investment real estate broker, and have seen many properties not be what the owners thought they were, when a new survey was done. I have seen, the owner owned a lot next door, not the one their home sat on by the legal description and even worse.

Those two markers on the back of your property may be accurate or they may not be true and accurate markers. That is often a problem.

The surveyors would have gone to the starting point defined by the legal description, and done their measurements and marking from that point to even start the survey on the property. It can be a considerable distance from the starting point to the actual property itself. They do not use old markers on your property to do a proper survey.

My wife and I bought a home in a popular vacation/resort mountain town. Our survey when we bought the home, showed we owned land up to within 30 feet of the home behind us, which was about 400 feet away from our home. The owner of that house, thought he owned to half way between the two houses, which the previous owner told him was the property line when he bought the home. It was a mountain treed property between our homes. A proper survey, showed he was wrong. He had a survey done on his property and it was right.

Those markers on your property, are not used to do a survey. If you don't agree with the survey as to what is your land, then the only solution is to have your own survey done. It may or may not come out that your property line is where you think it is. It is very important you have a survey done, so if the other one is wrong, you can get things straightened out.

[Hemlock140]

The legal description of the property provides detail that can be used to install new markers, for example:

[jackmichigan]

Originally Posted by mawipafl

Question: if survey markers and reference points no longer exist, how can a lot of land be surveyed to show proper boundaries?

Surveyors start at known points or benchmarks and work their way towards the property to be surveyed. Sometimes those starting points are relatively nearby, sometimes they can be quite some distance away. Even if old survey markers are still in existence on a parcel to be surveyed, rarely, if ever, will they use those markers to perform a new survey.

Newer surveys generally tend to be more accurate than older surveys, largely due to advances in technology (primarily satellite-based GPS--Global Positioning System--technology). It's not unusual for new surveys to have different results compared to older surveys. In fact, rarely will new surveys exactly match those performed 40 or more years ago--especially on large acreage tracts. At least I have yet to see one that does.

[399083453]

You can have your own survey done, and ask them questions, it will likely end in the same result. But they can explain it to you if it makes you feel better.

[mawipafl]

This is all great info everyone, especially the concept that a starting point, some permanent known marker somewhere, doesn't have to be nearby. I hadn't thought of that. Would mean more time for the survey crew to do the job, but I can see where it could be possible.

The deeds I've looked at thus far for the lots in the development are not very descriptive. This is the legal description of my family's property:

"...bounded and described as follows:

Westerly by [roadway] 100'
Northerly by other land now or formerly of [original developer] 269.49'
Easterly by land of railroad 156.24'
Southerly by Lot 30 on plan hereinafter mentioned 144.44'"
(the lengths are spelled out, but I didn't write them that way here)

The next paragraph references the Lot # itself and that it can be found described on the 1964/65 plan (giving the plan book number and page).

That's it. Not much to go on.

Even the original deed when the developer bought all the land has very little to go on. Boundary descriptions remind me of something one would see on a 1764 deed, not a 1964 deed!

[historyfan]

I've seen some bad survey work. You need to hire a licensed registered land surveyor immediately. You can dispute the survey done by another, if your surveyor finds it to be inaccurate. Depending on your location the time limit to protest may be short.

Properly done a survey will tie to an existing section corner pin. The reference to the highway may be correct. Highways will have established survey pins that tie to section corners in the area. Railroads also have surveys tied to section corner markers.

A section of land is one mile wide by one mile deep....in an ideal world there will be a pin at each section corner.

In the old days chains were used to measure distance but now surveyor's theoldolites can measure from miles away by sight reading.

Did you buy title insurance when your property was purchased? That coverage could cover losses you may suffer if the property line was not accurate.

[Larry Caldwell]

Does the original survey not show the location of corner pins? Around here, a platted lot will have corner pins that are either a pipe or piece of rebar 8' long driven into the ground. Typically the top of the pin is a foot below ground level to keep it from being hit by lawn equipment. The original subdivision plat should show all survey markers, including lot corner pins. It would be on file at the county surveyor or the county planning department. I have no idea how Massachusetts does things, but it would seem really weird to me that they were still piling up rocks as survey markers in the '60s.