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But there is a connected puzzlement. According to the ABA most US states consider trespassers another class of the general public with no differentiation. So is dr.frog simply picking up the few decision in those states who do differentiate? Is that why so few cases in so few places and none dealing with the case under discussion?
Holding that a person entering over a for sale sign as not being a invitee is interesting but that would make no difference in most of the US. So why no cases of simple trespass. Perhaps the simple answer that there are virtually none?
it is not my listing agreement. And I rarely have the occasion to show my own listing. It is the standard policies of the local board. And if you don't follow them you don't get a listing. And if you insist upon a tight showing condition your home does not get shown or sold. And it is pretty much the same set of conditions used throughout the west.
There is nothing I have said that is not pretty much normal. You folk appear to not know how the system works.
No. It is just states do things differently. So if LV stands for Las Vegas, then how you do things locally might be perfectly acceptable. It just depends on what your local trespass laws are. Not sure why you think everyone will do things the way you do it there. I can assure you being out west also, that we don't do business that way here. It is unacceptable and illegal to wander around property without permission.
No. It is just states do things differently. So if LV stands for Las Vegas, then how you do things locally might be perfectly acceptable. It just depends on what your local trespass laws are. Not sure why you think everyone will do things the way you do it there. I can assure you being out west also, that we don't do business that way here. It is unacceptable and illegal to wander around property without permission.
So you can't personally wander through a back yard of a vacant house as you wait for clients? You have to wait on the street or the sidewalk until they show up? Can't go in and open the blinds without them because it would be trespass? Really?
There was absolutely nothing in my note that dealt with clients. Only with agents. So you guys don't have a permissive access code? All showings require an appointment and a listing agent present? Really?
Funny - Not the way it was when my daughter bought her house outside Portland.
I make my view reasonably clear. I will walk around a home for sale if I know it is vacant and has a suitable entry code. So. as far as I know would any competent agent. I certainly will not suspend looking for concern over a neighbor. I don't believe you would either.
The question about signs and permission to look deals with the trespass statutes and not MLS rules. I don't think you can claim trespass when you have a simple for sale sign up. We use riders to say shown by appointment only etc. And you?
I would never enter the backyard of an occupied home without permission. I would however not hesitate to ring the bell and ask. This presumes it is not in the MLS.
The major point is that the public is not as polite as agents and may well invade a backyard over a for sale sign. If you put one up don't be surprised. And don't expect the cops to do anything about such an entry other than chase the offenders out.
Seriously? Those who choose to sell real estate somehow are more inherently polite than the general public? Don't hurt yourself while patting yourself on the back - I'd suggest that politeness is not a discriminating trait among any group mentioned in this thread.
Yes, it is the definition of trespassing to be on someone else's property without permission. In Oregon, it would be Criminal Trespass II. You wouldn't get jail time but probably a warning unless it happens a lot. Then you risk losing your real estate license.
You do have to ask permission in Oregon. Yes, you are allowed to walk up and ring the doorbell to say hello, or solicit within the law allowed by your state. You are not allowed to wander to the back of the property, open gates, etc without permission. The MLS is what gives you permission, as an agent, to enter the property. It is what protects you from trespassing as long as you follow showing instructions.
Driving by a house, standing on the sidewalk in front of it, are totally okay.
Unless the MLS contract boilerplate specifically gives permission for licensed agents to enter the property please explain how a private organization can have its members treated differently under the law than any other citizen.
it is not my listing agreement. And I rarely have the occasion to show my own listing. It is the standard policies of the local board. And if you don't follow them you don't get a listing. And if you insist upon a tight showing condition your home does not get shown or sold. And it is pretty much the same set of conditions used throughout the west.
There is nothing I have said that is not pretty much normal. You folk appear to not know how the system works.
And you appear to be confusing the rules and regulations of a private organization with criminal law.
Here are two more civil cases involving lawsuits where the plaintiff was injured while trespassing at a house for sale, again with the courts finding in both cases that a "for sale" sign did not consitute an implicit invitation to enter the property:
The standard for civil cases and criminal cases are different with a stronger burden of proof necessary in the criminal system. There is nothing in any of the cases cited that indicate a criminal prosecution for trespass was ever initiated and that is what the original point has been.
The OP would certainly be within his/her own rights to post "No Trespassing" signs on their own property but the "shared garden path" would still be a problem if there was no clear delineation of the property line. The shared path could even become a problem for the seller in transferring a clear title.
When a house is listed for sale the owner knows there will be people slowing down driving by, people parking maybe even oddly where none of the residents would, maybe getting out and walking on the street or edge of the road to get a real feel.
Likewise, neighbors know when a house is for sale there will be more traffic in the neighborhood, some going slow, etc.
I still say, for sale does not mean take your chance looking in windows and that no one is home. It does not mean go in a backyard and take the chance large dogs, otherwise friendly, are relaxing out of sight on the porch and will charge at you.
It does not mean take the chance someone is relaxing in the...well, privacy...of, well "their" backyard and you can interrupt that. It does not mean you can walk into a backyard cookout and mingle either. It does not mean you can surprise someone coming out of their garage/out building side door because you decide to walk around someone's property whether large or small suburban.
It does not mean you can look in windows. Even when you have heard Herb and Susie are on vacation so now is our chance because we don't really want to buy.....because Herb and Susie may have a house sitter there full time or someone who comes a few times a day.
I don't know of places where people do this....except one I heard about last night. And I've lived in several states, several kinds of properties. The one last night was a perfectly cute house at a low price for some reason on the largest lot at the end of a cul de sac and was advertised as "coming soon". Not even in mls yet. It didn't have a sign even. It was not in foreclosure or preforeclosure, no ads, etc. A few people had apparently heard by word of mouth and were stopping and walking around. And the place was not vacant. Somehow, it was irisistable. And this was an area where people did not do this. The owners were away for a couple of days. Shocked neighbors called the local law enforcement and they had a car drive by every so often and neighbors were mindful when out and about and walking dogs etc to tell trespassers to leave, speak to whoever they heard this from and wait for the sign and ads. But even when the owners returned...still people who could not resist coming on their property.
You can't always be sure no one is home for one thing. And you can't always be sure your "sneaking" is effective. I know people in regular homes in regular neighborhoods who have one of those security eyes that beeps in the house when someone passes it. Some of those people in regular homes in regular neighborhoods like to ask questions later.
You just never know these days.
unwelcoming neighborhood.
Obviously that house is going to sell very fast. Wasting police resources when you knew exactly why people were stopping is ridiculous. If they were throwing bricks then call the police, anything else is ludicrous. Must be a very unwelcoming neighborhood.
The path people are walking on to get to the back yard passes less than 10 feet in front of my downstairs home office windows. I am a full-time telecommuter. I see the people outside my window, and I know they can see me, too. If they find it creepy to have a neighbor minding their own business in their own home, that's their problem, not mine.
Must be an amazing view from your side window....You proved my point.
This is what you posted in your OP.
Quote OP......" today I have been seeing people pulling up in the driveway, getting out of their cars, and wandering all around the yard".
Just sayin :/ And, You haven't stated that you knew that the neighbors hadn't given permission to allow folks to walk around their property. Did you call and ask your neighbors??? Or just assume.
Still waiting for a response to my question. What are you really so upset about?
Yes, it is the definition of trespassing to be on someone else's property without permission. In Oregon, it would be Criminal Trespass II. You wouldn't get jail time but probably a warning unless it happens a lot. Then you risk losing your real estate license.
You do have to ask permission in Oregon. Yes, you are allowed to walk up and ring the doorbell to say hello, or solicit within the law allowed by your state. You are not allowed to wander to the back of the property, open gates, etc without permission. The MLS is what gives you permission, as an agent, to enter the property. It is what protects you from trespassing as long as you follow showing instructions.
Driving by a house, standing on the sidewalk in front of it, are totally okay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kokonutty
Unless the MLS contract boilerplate specifically gives permission for licensed agents to enter the property please explain how a private organization can have its members treated differently under the law than any other citizen.
You didn't also highlight the qualifier at the end of her statement: "...as long as you follow showing instructions."
That is quite applicable.
Entering the property, and "property" would be the "real property" and/or any improvements thereon, without a showing appointment is a "Category III Violation" for our local MLS members, and carries a minimum $500 member fine.
So, the treatment is an internal MLS TOS agreement defining limits to agent access, while also enabling access within certain parameters.
Last edited by MikeJaquish; 08-31-2016 at 06:10 AM..
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