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WHOA - I shouldn't stay away or I miss some fun!
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EXACTLY - the list price you have me set is to get into the right search range. and you don't want to have to lower it because it carries all sorts of baggage. The list price is incredibly important! This is what I'm saying!
Bull poop.
You are a funny guy, Mikey.
You don't care for real estate brokers, but staunchly defend meaningless and manipulated figures provided by those same real estate brokers as non-subjective and as important.
Agents lower price all the time just to market a high Sales price to list price number to fool impressionable people.
Listing is at $400,000 for 100 days. Gets withdrawn or artificially "Expired," and goes Active the same day, same broker, at $380,000. And, it is under contract immediately, at $380,000 in 0 DOM. Real numbers. Really meaningless stats. But, that agent can come to you and say, "I sold 123 Elm St. at 100% list price, on the first day on the market.
And your MLS publishes those numbers, and you would take them as uncorrupted? Caveat emptor.
Agents "buy" listings with proposals of very high prices all the time to beat out competition, with the clear intention of wearing the client down until they get a price reduction or less desirable, a contract at a reduced price.
It is even a strategy taught by gurus and mentors. "Get that listing, whatever it takes." And sellers tend to fall for the agent who will list the highest price, despite there being no sense or meaning in the price.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyKid
No, but I can go into MLS reports and see a comparison of List vs. Sale price every month. Is that a waste of ink? Nevermind, don't answer that.
Not ink, unless you print it, but it is a waste of pixels. If you talk to an agent who promotes those numbers as important indicators of their performance, you are dealing with either an incompetent or a shyster. That is how meaningless they are.
There are plenty of poor behaviors in the industry, and aggressive promotion of manipulated sales figures and listings with meaningless high Sales Prices to List Prices is a common one, along with DOM tomfoolery.
Does your MLS show you Seller concessions such as Buyer closing costs, or repair fund checks made out to vendors for post-closing repairs?
Those can be 10% of list price, or more. I recently closed one at 94% of list price. With exactly 3% more conceded by the Sellers for my buyers' closing costs. And another 2.6% in vendor checks for post closing repairs. Net: 88.4% of list.
When I pull a CMA of closed comparable sales, I can see closing costs concessions, but not the repair concessions, nor, in some sales, the lawn tractor and/or hot tub that were tossed in for $1 on a bill of sale.
Does your MLS bake those things into the numbers they feed you? You won't see that figure on your MLS lists.
My CMAs include a field to show Seller CC concessions. When I pull Mildew Meadows, I may see that in 6 of the last 9 transactions, sellers paid 1% to 4% toward Buyer costs. Does your MLS show those?
I recently closed a listing at 95.7% of list price. Was that good or bad? Client is pretty sharp, and thinks it was great.
I recently closed a listing at 104.3% of appraisal price. Your MLS won't tell you that.
I got a buyer into a house at 92% of appraisal price. Nor, will it tell you that.
Are either of those clients happy because it feels good, or because they both think they got value? Or both?
I think it is both. It feels good because they got very good value.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyKid
Clients are happy with success, yes - but success is subjective. Numbers are not. By and large people are getting an appraisal AFTER agreeing on a price (which may or may not be the list price). So that metric is "after market" and frankly is misleading in the context of this debate. The market has already determined the value of that home in that given moment (agreed price between 2 parties). Any tool an appraiser would use post agreement on a price is readily available to an agent who would be setting the list price. It's the act of setting the list price that is the magic - the "tool" to market the home as you would say. The comparison of that list price prior to marketing the home to the ultimate sales price may be meaningless to you (as the agent), but I doubt it's meaningless to many of your potential clients. Sometimes you need to take a step back and look at the big picture - being too close you miss the <insert metaphor>
LOL And, you think I am working with dull people whose satisfaction only stems from Feel Good? I would strongly disagree.
And where did you get the idea that generated numbers are just pure numbers? They most certainly are developed with extremely subjective factors and fuzzy logic.
So, your MLS gives you the appraisal numbers? I think you would find many agents rebelling about that, and a lot of listing agents never see them anyway. Appraisals are confidential buyer information.
Who says the market has determined the price at contract? All that has been done is a contract has been struck and they are routinely renegotiated after signed. Routinely. It is not a price until it closes, and appraisal happens prior to closing and often impacts the final sale price significantly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyKid
Meaningless to you, I know. But not meaningless to everyone.
Well, yeah. As mentioned, some people believe in stuff like unicorns, fairies, leprechauns, the Loch Ness Monster, and even "magic" or astrology or Zillow.
More than a real estate agent, many of them need a guardian.
I would make a really low ball offer just to get their blood pressure up a bit ... get them thinking huff huff huff who does this guy think he is ... lol.
Bull poop.
You are a funny guy, Mikey.
You don't care for real estate brokers, but staunchly defend meaningless and manipulated figures provided by those same real estate brokers as non-subjective and as important.
Agents lower price all the time just to market a high Sales price to list price number to fool impressionable people.
Listing is at $400,000 for 100 days. Gets withdrawn or artificially "Expired," and goes Active the same day, same broker, at $380,000. And, it is under contract immediately, at $380,000 in 0 DOM. Real numbers. Really meaningless stats. But, that agent can come to you and say, "I sold 123 Elm St. at 100% list price, on the first day on the market.
And your MLS publishes those numbers, and you would take them as uncorrupted? Caveat emptor.
Agents "buy" listings with proposals of very high prices all the time to beat out competition, with the clear intention of wearing the client down until they get a price reduction or less desirable, a contract at a reduced price.
It is even a strategy taught by gurus and mentors. "Get that listing, whatever it takes." And sellers tend to fall for the agent who will list the highest price, despite there being no sense or meaning in the price.
I try to be funny, sometimes it works, sometimes not. I have no issue with RE agents, but we've collided enough over the years here on CD to know I do think there's some really bad ones - REALLY bad ones.
For the record, if I ever get relo-ed across to your neck of the woods, you'd be my first call because I respect how you run your business and your general approach to the industry. You may hang up on me - on second thought I should probably not mention how I got your name or this board at all should that day come. LOL
I can't argue with that example - and that pains me a little. I think it's a matter of not hating the player - it's about hating the game. Numbers can lie - they often do. Just ask Case Shiller or essentially anything coming out of NAR.
Quote:
Not ink, unless you print it, but it is a waste of pixels. If you talk to an agent who promotes those numbers as important indicators of their performance, you are dealing with either an incompetent or a shyster. That is how meaningless they are.
There are plenty of poor behaviors in the industry, and aggressive promotion of manipulated sales figures and listings with meaningless high Sales Prices to List Prices is a common one, along with DOM tomfoolery.
Does your MLS show you Seller concessions such as Buyer closing costs, or repair fund checks made out to vendors for post-closing repairs?
Those can be 10% of list price, or more. I recently closed one at 94% of list price. With exactly 3% more conceded by the Sellers for my buyers' closing costs. And another 2.6% in vendor checks for post closing repairs. Net: 88.4% of list.
When I pull a CMA of closed comparable sales, I can see closing costs concessions, but not the repair concessions, nor, in some sales, the lawn tractor and/or hot tub that were tossed in for $1 on a bill of sale.
Does your MLS bake those things into the numbers they feed you? You won't see that figure on your MLS lists.
My CMAs include a field to show Seller CC concessions. When I pull Mildew Meadows, I may see that in 6 of the last 9 transactions, sellers paid 1% to 4% toward Buyer costs. Does your MLS show those?
I recently closed a listing at 95.7% of list price. Was that good or bad? Client is pretty sharp, and thinks it was great.
I recently closed a listing at 104.3% of appraisal price. Your MLS won't tell you that.
I got a buyer into a house at 92% of appraisal price. Nor, will it tell you that.
Are either of those clients happy because it feels good, or because they both think they got value? Or both?
I think it is both. It feels good because they got very good value.
My home MLS is carolinahome and it's similar to many MLS' I've looked at over the years. The month end reports are there for you to see. The List vs. Sale metric is clearly astericked that it does not include concessions (but you knew that!). More proof to support that numbers lie.
Quote:
LOL And, you think I am working with dull people whose satisfaction only stems from Feel Good? I would strongly disagree.
And where did you get the idea that generated numbers are just pure numbers? They most certainly are developed with extremely subjective factors and fuzzy logic.
So, your MLS gives you the appraisal numbers? I think you would find many agents rebelling about that, and a lot of listing agents never see them anyway. Appraisals are confidential buyer information.
Who says the market has determined the price at contract? All that has been done is a contract has been struck and they are routinely renegotiated after signed. Routinely. It is not a price until it closes, and appraisal happens prior to closing and often impacts the final sale price significantly.
Well, yeah. As mentioned, some people believe in stuff like unicorns, fairies, leprechauns, the Loch Ness Monster, and even "magic" or astrology or Zillow.
More than a real estate agent, many of them need a guardian.
I concede the voodoo numbers - UNCLE!
In the end, I joined the fray here not because I dislike you, agents, or brokers. I felt compelled to defend a metric designed (at least in spirit) to give one an idea of how "good" an agent is at his/her job. Whether that's an ability to deceive or price "appropriately" will likely be a longer debate. What I have to admit (after being schooled by you), is that rating a RE agent is too subjective for any single metric. Well, maybe something simple like number of closings? Even then, that's likely open to scrutiny when an agent is taking on so much work you just become another number to them. Oh the complexity of it all!
P.S. Please don't knock astrology or the LN monster - they deserve better treatment than being dragged into the gutter of RE stats. Maybe we can discuss the current housing bubble next - that could be fun.
I try to be funny, sometimes it works, sometimes not. I have no issue with RE agents, but we've collided enough over the years here on CD to know I do think there's some really bad ones - REALLY bad ones.
For the record, if I ever get relo-ed across to your neck of the woods, you'd be my first call because I respect how you run your business and your general approach to the industry. You may hang up on me - on second thought I should probably not mention how I got your name or this board at all should that day come. LOL
I can't argue with that example - and that pains me a little. I think it's a matter of not hating the player - it's about hating the game. Numbers can lie - they often do. Just ask Case Shiller or essentially anything coming out of NAR.
My home MLS is carolinahome and it's similar to many MLS' I've looked at over the years. The month end reports are there for you to see. The List vs. Sale metric is clearly astericked that it does not include concessions (but you knew that!). More proof to support that numbers lie.
I concede the voodoo numbers - UNCLE!
In the end, I joined the fray here not because I dislike you, agents, or brokers. I felt compelled to defend a metric designed (at least in spirit) to give one an idea of how "good" an agent is at his/her job. Whether that's an ability to deceive or price "appropriately" will likely be a longer debate. What I have to admit (after being schooled by you), is that rating a RE agent is too subjective for any single metric. Well, maybe something simple like number of closings? Even then, that's likely open to scrutiny when an agent is taking on so much work you just become another number to them. Oh the complexity of it all!
P.S. Please don't knock astrology or the LN monster - they deserve better treatment than being dragged into the gutter of RE stats. Maybe we can discuss the current housing bubble next - that could be fun.
Nessie does carry out her routine with panache!
And, I have a topic for a new blog post:
The Pop A-Z of Real Estate: Astrology to Zillow!
I enjoy the mixed blessings of working in the sausage industry, enjoying eating the stuff, but I also get to see how too much of it is made right on the grinding room floor. Yoiks!
Some of the posts in this thread are examples of why I would not get involved in a bidding war. To some, this is a game. An exercise in terminology funsies and getting people worked up. A world where value and list price and sales price mean nothing. And then on to the next bidding war, hopefully, so they can start again.
I am hopefully buying a home at the lower end of a fair price range, after giving it careful consideration and at least two thorough walk-throughs, together with research into zoning, lot size, area amenities and such.
There are other houses. I don't need to get involved in a situation that smacks of gamesmanship, where it behooves other to lie to me, and who want an offer after one 10 minute look-see so I can "nab it" at full list price or higher. Ridiculous.
I do not even go near bidding wars.
One fair offer and done.
It's a business transaction.
Take it or leave it. it's my money and your desire to sell.
When we sold our home....we priced it accordingly. Didn't get greedy or even think of low balling price to draw in competitive bids. it sold the first week on the market. We never regretted who bought it. we got a deal when we got it...made some moolah, and sold it with a good deal to the buyer .
for better or worse, there are VERY FEW folks who do it this way.
Some of the posts in this thread are examples of why I would not get involved in a bidding war. To some, this is a game. An exercise in terminology funsies and getting people worked up. A world where value and list price and sales price mean nothing. And then on to the next bidding war, hopefully, so they can start again.
I am hopefully buying a home at the lower end of a fair price range, after giving it careful consideration and at least two thorough walk-throughs, together with research into zoning, lot size, area amenities and such.
There are other houses. I don't need to get involved in a situation that smacks of gamesmanship, where it behooves other to lie to me, and who want an offer after one 10 minute look-see so I can "nab it" at full list price or higher. Ridiculous.
All well and good but wait until you make an offer and are called back a day or so later and told there is a higher offer. Like it or not, play it or not, you are in a bidding war.
Most people like to feel that they got a "good deal" or at least paid a "fair price" for a house. In a market where prices are rising faster than comparable sales can display that and where multiple offers are common, it's really REALLY hard to feel that way.
As is often said, a house is only worth what a person is willing to pay for it. Multiple offers are quite common in my market and I tell all my clients the same thing when we start to talk about how much to offer - offer enough that you won't be kicking yourself if you lose the house but don't offer so much that if you get the house you'll be kicking yourself.
There's a saying in the industry you hear ad nauseum - real estate is local. What's happening where I am may not be happening the next town over or even on the other side of town. While there seems, nationally, to be a trend of low inventory and rising prices I'm sure there are markets where this is not the case. If you live someplace where it's a buyer's market or even a balanced market then absolutely . . . why would you make your offer your highest and best right off the bat? Real estate agents named Mike tend to be smart people and I don't think the other Mike was ever suggesting that in a non-competitive situation that a buyer back up the brinks truck right off the bat.
If he was the only one in the thread that didn't believe they exist then now there are two people. There's no such thing as a "bidding war." While I often refer to our system of making offers as a "blind auction format" it's not truly an auction. People are not rapid fire throwing out dollar amounts until one person stands alone as the high bidder.
I work in a VERY hot market. We see multiple offers all the time even when in a buyer's market we get them from time to time. So, in 10 years I've seen quite a number of competitive situations. Typically, there's a first round of offers and then if someone hasn't tried to swat a fly with a sledgehammer there's typically a call for best & final offers and then inevitably someone comes out on top. There isn't this constant round and round that the term "bidding war" insinuates. It just doesn't happen. Maybe with a FSBO but certainly not with an agent listed property.
a bidding war would be like an auction. You know what your competitor has bid, and you have the chance and time to outbid it.
There's a company out there right now that got slapped in CA for publishing offer prices online. It's one of the "disruptors" trying to get their slice of what they see as an incredibly juicy pie....but without paying attention to the state laws/contracts.
Some of the posts in this thread are examples of why I would not get involved in a bidding war. To some, this is a game. An exercise in terminology funsies and getting people worked up. A world where value and list price and sales price mean nothing. And then on to the next bidding war, hopefully, so they can start again.
I am hopefully buying a home at the lower end of a fair price range, after giving it careful consideration and at least two thorough walk-throughs, together with research into zoning, lot size, area amenities and such.
There are other houses. I don't need to get involved in a situation that smacks of gamesmanship, where it behooves other to lie to me, and who want an offer after one 10 minute look-see so I can "nab it" at full list price or higher. Ridiculous.
the only time any agent enjoys multiple offer situations is when they're the Listing Agent. In almost every post I've read on this thread, this term "bidding war", and the discussion of multiple offers, list price, etc has come from the angle of representing the Buyer.
Again, I wish you the best luck and success that you can possibly have. That is the same thing that I said to you months ago. You are constructing obstacles to your move that an incredibly small % of folks would consider.
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we got a deal when we got it...made some moolah, and sold it with a good deal to the buyer .
