Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Real Estate
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-29-2021, 11:23 AM
 
3,644 posts, read 1,599,460 times
Reputation: 5076

Advertisements

FL landlord (and full owner) of an office space has an office tenant with a signed lease agreement that:

- has a written monthly payment
- no end lease date specified
- signed by both parties

At one point the lease was extended and this paragraph was added that states:

EXTENSION OF LEASE TERM: The parties hereby agree to extend and continue the aforementioned Lease Agreement and Lease Extension commencing on March 1, 2017, and not expiring until Tenant gives 30 days notice.

QUESTION: It's obvious the tenant can give 30 days notice at any time, this being a month-to-month lease (no end date on the lease). But can the landlord also give 30 days notice to the tenant at any time? Or does the tenant have the right to stay as long as they want because it says "not expiring until Tenant gives 30 days notice" ? The tenant can stay forever?

FL statute below describes the lease as a 'tenancy at will' because there is no end date, and it has a monthly payment. It's a month-to-month. Either side can give 30 days notice.

BUT the "not expiring until" seems to say only the tenant can give notice. However, the landlord never had that intention, obviously. And the landlord wants to evict with 30 days notice but is concerned the tenant may contest. My view is that the agreement doesn't say ONLY the tenant can give notice. And that the "not expiring" simply confirms a continuing month-to-month.

What do you think? Not taken as legal advice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FL statute states:

83.02 Certain written leases tenancies at will; duration.—Where any tenancy has been created by an instrument in writing from year to year, or quarter to quarter, or month to month, or week to week, to be determined by the periods at which the rent is payable, and the term of which tenancy is unlimited, the tenancy shall be a tenancy at will. If the rent is payable weekly, then the tenancy shall be from week to week; if payable monthly, then the tenancy shall be from month to month; if payable quarterly, then from quarter to quarter; if payable yearly, then from year to year.
History.—s. 2, ch. 5441, 1905; RGS 3568; CGL 5432; s. 2, ch. 15057, 1931; s. 34, ch. 67-254.


83.03 Termination of tenancy at will; length of notice.—A tenancy at will may be terminated by either party giving notice as follows:
(1) Where the tenancy is from year to year, by giving not less than 3 months’ notice prior to the end of any annual period;
(2) Where the tenancy is from quarter to quarter, by giving not less than 45 days’ notice prior to the end of any quarter;
(3) Where the tenancy is from month to month, by giving not less than 15 days’ notice prior to the end of any monthly period; and
(4) Where the tenancy is from week to week, by giving not less than 7 days’ notice prior to the end of any weekly period.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-29-2021, 11:30 AM
 
13,131 posts, read 20,984,674 times
Reputation: 21410
Assuming this was on a traditional commercial lease, was the "tenancy at-will" section omitted or stricken through? Was any mention of tenancy terms written anywhere else in the lease?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2021, 11:41 AM
 
3,644 posts, read 1,599,460 times
Reputation: 5076
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabrrita View Post
Assuming this was on a traditional commercial lease, was the "tenancy at-will" section omitted or stricken through? Was any mention of tenancy terms written anywhere else in the lease?
There is no written "tenancy at-will" section or mention of tenancy terms. Just month to month payment with amount. My thought is FL statute trumps any confusion about the phrase "not expiring until". All lease agreements are "not expiring until" one side gives notice, as FL statute says. Thx
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2021, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Columbia, SC
10,964 posts, read 21,980,652 times
Reputation: 10674
What does the lease say about termination by either party?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2021, 12:31 PM
 
3,644 posts, read 1,599,460 times
Reputation: 5076
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Hoffman View Post
What does the lease say about termination by either party?
Only this that I can see:

02) Term: The term shall commence on March 1, 2O14 ("Comrnencement Date") and unless terminated earlier pursuant hereto, shall continue for 12 months (as the "Termination Date"). This Lease allows for two one year extension options at the same rate as the initial lease. Each option to extend initiates a new Commencement Date and a new Termination date for the respective period. The Tenant is required to provide the Landlord with notification at least 30 days prior to each Termination date to be granted to option to extend.

Assisnment and Subletting:
C) The Landlord is currently occupying office #16. Landlord agrees to continue to occupy or leave vacant this office during the term of the lease and its option periods. lf Landlord decides to rent office #16, Landlord agrees to give Tenant 60 days notice of his intention and Tenant may terminate the lease within this 60 day period continuing forward to 60 days past the move-in date of the new tenant.

and typical term clauses re default of payment, insurance, etc

Thx
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2021, 01:11 PM
 
13,131 posts, read 20,984,674 times
Reputation: 21410
Lets start this again,

The original lease started and expired when?
Extension 1 of the original lease started and ended when?
Extension 2 of the original lease started and ended when?

Based on the additional Relevant information you now posted, the original lease calls for 2 extensions. If those 2 extension have already come and gone, the tenant is a hold-over and is at-will on a month to month basis. Is there anything else in the lease you forgot to mention so far that is relevant?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2021, 02:20 PM
 
3,644 posts, read 1,599,460 times
Reputation: 5076
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabrrita View Post
Lets start this again,

The original lease started and expired when?
Extension 1 of the original lease started and ended when?
Extension 2 of the original lease started and ended when?

Based on the additional Relevant information you now posted, the original lease calls for 2 extensions. If those 2 extension have already come and gone, the tenant is a hold-over and is at-will on a month to month basis. Is there anything else in the lease you forgot to mention so far that is relevant?
I've posted all the term dates. The original term started March 1, 2014 and was for 12 months with an option for two one year extensions, which each can have a new commence and termination date options.

The first extension was signed and has come and gone and had a written expire date. I didn't post it.

The 2nd extension is posted in OP ( "EXTENSION OF LEASE TERM".) started March 1, 2017, and has no expire date, and says "not expiring until Tenant gives 30 days notice".

Apparently the landlord liked the tenant and didn't want to keep making new extensions each year so he came up with the "not expiring until" phrase in the 2nd extension. To me it sounds like this was to make it an ongoing month-to-month without the need for any more written extensions. I think the tenant thinks he can stay as long as he wants and the landlord can not give the tenant notice because of the "not expiring until Tenant gives 30 days notice".

Does the "not expiring until Tenant gives 30 days notice" phrase concern you and does it prevent the landlord from giving a 30 day notice?

Thx

Last edited by james112; 07-29-2021 at 02:29 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2021, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
6,341 posts, read 4,898,571 times
Reputation: 17999
Former landlord's opinion for the 2 cents that it's worth.

The agreement became tenancy at will when the extension with no termination was created. As such it is subject to termination by the tenant with 30 days notice and the landlord per statute.

If the tenant goes to court and attempts to enjoin the landlord from terminating the tenancy, he may find that the court can reform the terms of the contract to prevent unconscionable harm to the landlord.

The court isn't likely to allow the tenant to stay there "forever" to the detriment of the landlord.

Most people overlook that part of contract law when a contract is badly written.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2021, 06:15 AM
 
Location: Beautiful Rhode Island
9,287 posts, read 14,899,623 times
Reputation: 10374
I've never seen any lease where a tenant can "stay as long as they want". That would be a huge violation of the rights of ownership.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2021, 07:48 AM
 
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, 615' Elevation, Zone 8b - originally from SF Bay Area
44,563 posts, read 81,147,605 times
Reputation: 57767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollytree View Post
I've never seen any lease where a tenant can "stay as long as they want". That would be a huge violation of the rights of ownership.
Likewise, and I have never seen a month-to-month lease that did not provide for either party to terminate with 30 day notice. That should have been in the original lease, and if so, is not superseded by the amendment.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Real Estate
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top