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Old 01-02-2022, 05:01 AM
 
Location: The Woods
18,356 posts, read 26,489,954 times
Reputation: 11350

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Steel tubs are cold. Cast iron is more comfortable.
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Old 01-02-2022, 07:47 AM
 
860 posts, read 439,209 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kokonutty View Post
At least two posters have attempted to make the point that cast iron tubs, even if preexisting in colors buyers don't want, are somehow superior to steel tubs that are new, clean and spotlessly white and appeal to the broadest market. For normal, single family usage there is absolutely no difference in durability or serviceability between the two. This is such a minor point that the pixels burned to post such things are probably more significant. The same is true for those who would attempt to draw the line between ceramic and porcelain tiles. Most people will never notice a difference in their durability over their lifespan. Certainly this is not the place to be deciding the quality of a rehab. Those familiar with construction quality differences would be much more concerned with what type of substrate is behind those tiles surrounding that tub.
Cast iron—as a thick, pure iron tub—is the most durable bathtub material out there. Cast iron tubs can potentially last for decades—which is longer than many other tubs are expected to last.

Porcelain Tile
Known as the most durable type of tile on the market, porcelain is harder, denser, tougher, and less porous than ceramic tile. It also has a very low absorption rate, meaning it’s virtually impervious to water damage, even after prolonged exposure. This characteristic makes it an ideal choice for bathrooms, laundry rooms, patios, and other moisture-prone areas. Since porcelain tile can withstand heavy traffic over long periods of time, it works well as a flooring and countertop material.

These materials are both superior to their cheaper counterparts in every way except price.

The typical person taking the time and expense to install a superior product isn’t going to bother wasting their time and extra expense to install them over an inferior base. And no inspector can see behind walls or have any way of knowing that they even went so far as install extra water proofing behind the tiles or know they used a superior setting material to guarantee a quality install.

But I agree that most people just want to see new and pretty and don’t recognize quality when they see it. Kind of like your suggestion that steel was equal to cast iron or that ceramic was just as good as porcelain. I’ll add another called bulk continuous filament nylon carpeting v polyester. I know which one I’d never install in a house of mine. You will never convince me they are equal, because I know too much experience and know better.

Bottom line: most (not all) flippers use cheap materials but so long as they are the right colors people aren’t wise enough to see through that.

I would never make it as a flipper because I could never remodel a home knowing it was beneath my standards. Doing much of the work ourselves plays into that as well because it’s not worth doing if you’re not going to do it right or well.
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Old 01-02-2022, 08:47 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,203 posts, read 107,859,557 times
Reputation: 116113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joylush View Post
Cast iron—as a thick, pure iron tub—is the most durable bathtub material out there. Cast iron tubs can potentially last for decades—which is longer than many other tubs are expected to last.
.
I've never heard of a tub wearing out. I don't think I've ever encountered a steel tub, either. I have encountered tubs made out of some kind of synthetic material, like a heavy fiberglass or something, that don't feel solid at all. That's what I've seen some people install in bathroom add-ons or even new construction, to keep expenses down.
Quote:
Bottom line: most (not all) flippers use cheap materials but so long as they are the right colors people aren’t wise enough to see through that.
Ah. Now this digression about tubs and tile makes sense. And I think this is where hideous wood flooring made of discount imported wood comes in, as well. Not to mention Pergo.
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Old 01-02-2022, 08:54 AM
 
Location: Cary, NC
43,280 posts, read 77,092,464 times
Reputation: 45632
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
I've never heard of a tub wearing out. I don't think I've ever encountered a steel tub, either. I have encountered tubs made out of some kind of synthetic material, like a heavy fiberglass or something, that don't feel solid at all. That's what I've seen some people install in bathroom add-ons or even new construction, to keep expenses down.
Ah. Now this digression about tubs and tile makes sense. And I think this is where hideous wood flooring made of discount imported wood comes in, as well. Not to mention Pergo.
Yes, you can buy porcelain-on-steel tubs.
If the porcelain finish is dinged, and the steel exposed, it can rust through and you have tub failure.
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Old 01-02-2022, 03:19 PM
 
8,181 posts, read 2,790,907 times
Reputation: 6016
Generally Good. House flippers take basically unlivable homes that many buyers have neither the skills, patience nor resources to deal with and quickly rehab them to a livable condition to be placed back on the market. Whether they're put on the market as rentals or for sale is irrelevant. It's another house on the market that otherwise would likely not be on the market. And that's before accounting for all the jobs that house flippers create. If there wasn't demand for their services, house flipping wouldn't be so common. The quality of the materials doesn't bother me that much - I consider the shelf life of most finishes to be something along the lines of 10 years anyway, at which point I would need/want a major update. The exception to this is probably wood flooring - real hardwood can last like 100 years as long as it's properly refinished. I don't spend tens of thousands on finishes that last 50+ years for the same reason I don't spend thousands of dollars on furniture with a 30+ year shelf life. The probability that I'll keep the furniture/finishes that long is exactly zero and I'm not spending the premium on it.

Now, do some house flippers do shoddy work? Absolutely. That's true of every single profession known to mankind. But just because we have shady lawyers doesn't mean we get rid of the legal profession.
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Old 01-03-2022, 07:47 AM
 
11,025 posts, read 7,836,796 times
Reputation: 23702
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeJaquish View Post
Yes, you can buy porcelain-on-steel tubs.
If the porcelain finish is dinged, and the steel exposed, it can rust through and you have tub failure.
And if the porcelain finish on a cast iron tub is dinged guess what can happen?

Steel tubs are perfectly capable of lasting as long as cast iron and are perfectly acceptable for home use. I have had both and have no problem with either.

Heat transfer is as significant in steel as in cast iron. It will take more energy to initially heat a cast iron tub than a steel one the same way it will lose heat slower. Since most tubs are used as showers rather than baths that difference is inconsequential.
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Old 01-03-2022, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Columbia, SC
10,964 posts, read 21,980,652 times
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I'm currently renovating a house right now. On paper it looks like I got a deal. But you don't see the hidden costs. Structurally, before I even could get to the cosmetic stuff: Subfloor damage, sheet rock damage, a few rafters had to be replaced and sheet rock on the ceiling where we had to cut in to access them, new roof and flashing plus had to replace a fair amount of fascia and soffit that had water damage, gutted 2 bathrooms and expanded the primary bathroom by taking some space from the hall bathroom on the other side, had to replace some plumbing, removed old and possibly not working appliances, and a new hvac because the old one didn't work, and 2 brand new garage doors and openers, new electrical panel and some wiring repairs that were needed. There is no way this house would have qualified for traditional financing and the repair cost exceeded the limits for an FHA 203k renovation streamline loan. There simply are not many first time home buyers or people looking for a primary residence that have the time and money to tackle that. New counters and hardware. New floors and paint for the whole house. New electrical outlets and light switches and face plates. New blinds that are nice 2" faux wood as opposed to the old cheap beat up $3 that were there.

Things I've managed to save: The old wood doors and kitchen cabinets which I love, and the windows which the previous owner updated within the last 20 years on a house built in the 70's. That's about it really. So the house looked affordable at what I paid for it, but I'll have sunk in close to what I paid for it by the time I'm done.

Yes, it's shifting a bit with the eBuyers looking for more move in ready homes, but owner occupant buyers often have a chance to buy those homes also and don't. Most flips are more like what I described above than a simple cosmetic update and resell.


Also, I find it weird that this thread turned into a side debate over cast iron vs. steel tubs. I actually like the fiberglass or plastic inserts myself. It's what I have in my personal home. Also, I avoid tile. It's not a great material to me. I currently prefer LVP over the tile in wet areas where I want a higher end finish or vinyl when I don't. Tile creates other issues, the grout stains over time, the tiles can crack.
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Old 01-03-2022, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Boilermaker Territory
26,404 posts, read 46,566,000 times
Reputation: 19539
Yes, I bought my house a few years ago at around $250K before the huge uptick in prices in 2020-21. I've put close to $50K into the property, and plan on selling in a few years for hopefully more than $175K than I paid for it. This is an undervalued township semi-rural area that has seen price appreciation at a much faster rate ever since the WFH momentum shifted into higher gear.
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Old 01-03-2022, 12:54 PM
 
Location: PNW
7,521 posts, read 3,236,257 times
Reputation: 10687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Hoffman View Post
I'm currently renovating a house right now. On paper it looks like I got a deal. But you don't see the hidden costs. Structurally, before I even could get to the cosmetic stuff: Subfloor damage, sheet rock damage, a few rafters had to be replaced and sheet rock on the ceiling where we had to cut in to access them, new roof and flashing plus had to replace a fair amount of fascia and soffit that had water damage, gutted 2 bathrooms and expanded the primary bathroom by taking some space from the hall bathroom on the other side, had to replace some plumbing, removed old and possibly not working appliances, and a new hvac because the old one didn't work, and 2 brand new garage doors and openers, new electrical panel and some wiring repairs that were needed. There is no way this house would have qualified for traditional financing and the repair cost exceeded the limits for an FHA 203k renovation streamline loan. There simply are not many first time home buyers or people looking for a primary residence that have the time and money to tackle that. New counters and hardware. New floors and paint for the whole house. New electrical outlets and light switches and face plates. New blinds that are nice 2" faux wood as opposed to the old cheap beat up $3 that were there.

Things I've managed to save: The old wood doors and kitchen cabinets which I love, and the windows which the previous owner updated within the last 20 years on a house built in the 70's. That's about it really. So the house looked affordable at what I paid for it, but I'll have sunk in close to what I paid for it by the time I'm done.

Yes, it's shifting a bit with the eBuyers looking for more move in ready homes, but owner occupant buyers often have a chance to buy those homes also and don't. Most flips are more like what I described above than a simple cosmetic update and resell.


Also, I find it weird that this thread turned into a side debate over cast iron vs. steel tubs. I actually like the fiberglass or plastic inserts myself. It's what I have in my personal home. Also, I avoid tile. It's not a great material to me. I currently prefer LVP over the tile in wet areas where I want a higher end finish or vinyl when I don't. Tile creates other issues, the grout stains over time, the tiles can crack.

I replaced a fiberglass tub/shower insert with a Koehler cast iron tub. It's the difference between a nice long hot soak and (not). I had the best tile installers (cost a small fortune). I put waterproofing under all my tile throughout. I had the Schluter system done in the shower. I believe if I ever sell someone is going to notice the quality differences.
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Old 01-03-2022, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Raleigh
13,714 posts, read 12,427,493 times
Reputation: 20227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Hoffman View Post
Good. It does create work, but more importantly, and I think people overlook this, is it creates more livable housing. Those homes are "affordable" becuase of the condition. I haven't met too many people over the years that are buying a primary residence that have the ability (capital) and the desire (time) to invest in a house in bad condition to rehab it.

Those affordable aren't so affordable anymore when you factor in the cost to rehab it. Everyone always thinks foreclosures are a great deal, but they aren't always such a great deal after all the money gets sunk into repairs. Many times someone could have just ended up buying a move in ready home for a similar price.

There are loan products out there to help with the rehab costs but they are a bit more complicated, usually have higher rates, and sellers don't have to take offers that are complicated right now with the inventory shortage.
My complaint is that in my market there's a lot of livable housing that get bought by flippers. Dated places that are still very servicable; some of them were nicer than the apartments I rented before buying.
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