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You're really making a good argument for us all to individually pay for our own insurance.
Supplemental insurance maybe. In our system not everyone is going to have health insurance, and turning people away to die is counter-productive. So those of us with insurance pay for those who don't. When everyone who works pays into the system via their taxes, the responsible people pay less. Then they can optionally pay a fraction of their savings to get supplemental insurance, or pay out of pocket, to get some likely-unnecessary test to ease their mind when the doc tells them they have cancer.
Heiwos. You spent so much time on this forum asking for free hand outs. Why don't you go out and work a bit harder, then you can afford to buy health insurance.
Supplemental insurance maybe. In our system not everyone is going to have health insurance, and turning people away to die is counter-productive. So those of us with insurance pay for those who don't. When everyone who works pays into the system via their taxes, the responsible people pay less.
The French model is worth looking at imo, though they've been having some significant problems as well from what I've been reading. The UK and Canada? no way. People shouldn't have to wait. There shouldn't be rationing.
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Then they can optionally pay a fraction of their savings to get supplemental insurance, or pay out of pocket, to get some likely-unnecessary test to ease their mind when the doc tells them they have cancer.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Early detection of many cancers is the number one front-line defense in combatting whatever cancer a person may have. Do you have a specific unnecessary test in mind?
In a way it's kind of like you saying, I'll take your tax money if I want to. Maybe that's not what you meant but given your comment about the hypotheical earlier (45 yr old with cancer) it sounds like it.
No, it's like I'm saying I'll allocate your tax money if I can (if the party I voted for is in the majority). I'll allocate it in a more cost effective way that will save you money. That's democracy in action.
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I voted for Obama. I would like to see some type of cobra for those that cannot afford their own insurance. But, I wouldn't want complete universal care where I would have to pay way more in taxes plus monies for private insurace. There has to be a middle ground.
Check out post #51. You'd likely pay less, not more, if you're responsible now. Even in third-world countries people can get decent health care at a tiny fraction of the cost in the US. The hospitals/doctors/pharmacies etc. are gouging, because they can. One example, the exact same drugs that cost $x in the US can routinely cost one-third that in Canada, because the gov't buys them in bulk and is the only major purchaser there.
What is un-American?: wealth redistribution. Robin Hood.
If wealth redistribution is un-American, then you don't live in America. What was one of the first things Bush did? He redistributed the wealth, giving tax cuts to the rich, putting a burden on the rest that helped create this depression. Obama is unredistributing the wealth if anything. It's perfectly okay for a prez to do that when it leads to the greatest long-term prosperity for the average American.
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Everyone the same. Same house, same income, same cars. Talk the same, think the same. Burn the books. Depend on 'Our Great Leader' to put food on our table, to sew up our children, to invent and innovate for the benefit of us all. Work when and how we're told.
None of which is the case in France, a highly socialist country and the #1 tourist destination, it's such a nice place.
No, it's like I'm saying I'll allocate your tax money if I can (if the party I voted for is in the majority). I'll allocate it in a more cost effective way that will save you money. That's democracy in action.
It still doesn't make sense to me to pay half of my income in taxes to fund universal care, to pay another portion on my own private insurance (since I don't believe in rationing) and plus right off the bat, I'll be paying 40k more than my next door neighbor due to my student loans that have interest payments going to the government. Add on sales tax, excise tax, marriage penalties, etc. I would be paying upwards of 60% of my income out.
I think that those of you that want universal care should be taxed for it and have that care. I see no problem with this. Those of us that like our insurance already, which is included in our salaries, shouldn't have to be put in the position of forfeiting that salary.
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Check out post #51. You'd likely pay less, not more, if you're responsible now. Even in third-world countries people can get decent health care at a tiny fraction of the cost in the US. The hospitals/doctors/pharmacies etc. are gouging, because they can. One example, the exact same drugs that cost $x in the US can routinely cost one-third that in Canada, because the gov't buys them in bulk and is the only major purchaser there.
It's hard to say with meds. There's the very real fact that some pay way more. We susbsidize the lower costs for other nations, and rightly so. It's not cheap to make a drug. It's a 15 year long process that costs a lot of money. Rest assured, it's something the government wouldn't do. And be clear, big pharma would assume close its doors if it didn't make a profit.
Third world country? You are arguing trickle down healthcare. No third world country has the best and latest medicine, hospital facilities, diagnostic capabilities. I've done charity work in Ghana, India, China. I'll be happy to take you along if you love third world medicine so much.
Hospitals gouging? Most operate a a loss!
Doctors gouging? Most can't even pay off their student loans in 10 years! Cost of going through medical school is around $200k, plus 10 of the best years in their lives.
Seriously Heiwos. Get off your rear and get a job. Don't wait for my tax to bring food to your table. No one is stopping you from getting a brain, a work ethic, and going to school and get a high paying job. Stop looking for a hand out.
The French model is worth looking at imo, though they've been having some significant problems as well from what I've been reading. The UK and Canada? no way. People shouldn't have to wait. There shouldn't be rationing.
We should emulate the best system. I disagree there shouldn't be rationing. People tend to want every medical test imaginable. If they have cancer, say, they want every experimental procedure. If you don't make them wait or never deny seldom-necessary procedures, we'd be paying so much for health care that the bridges would fall down.
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I'm not sure what you mean by this. Early detection of many cancers is the number one front-line defense in combatting whatever cancer a person may have. Do you have a specific unnecessary test in mind?
Have you ever seen those ads to get a free 50-point inspection of your car? Do you think they ever don't find anything wrong with the car? In our system, docs tend to over-order tests, because they & the hospital make $$$ that way. Tell someone they have cancer, you can make a quick $10K in tests. It's a scam. When the public runs the health care system, and the administrators truly have the public's best interests at heart, along with a budget (maximum $$ they can spend), they can properly allocate the money. That may mean denying a test that history has shown is of little value in most cases. Sometimes a patient will die because the test would have been valuable in his/her case. So be it, if that means that 10 other people won't die because money was available for their more-effective tests. This is not like HMOs in the US, which seek to maximize profit, not provide the best overall care.
Why do you pay car insurance with a $500 deductible that you never use?
Heiwos. You talk like one of my close friends when it comes to these policies, which is why I kinda like you. But you are way, way off base when it comes to healthcare. Qualities cost money. I've been to France, and some of my family lives their. There is always give and take. You will not want to live there if you are used to your quality of life here. What was the last great drug, great surgery, great anything in the healthcare system produced by France? Our country is the leader and the innovator. If you cap everything, who would produce these innovations? Do you know what it takes to make a new drug and take it to production with FDA approval? We'd still be using penicillin if you want your socialized medicine.
What our country guarantee in its constitution is the right for everyone to make a fair living and to succeed with minimal government intervention. You might want to read it. No where does it say that everyone needs the same quality of living. No where does it say that wealth has to be distributed to the poor It's perceived that way because us Americans have historically been the most generous people on earth. People get spoiled by the charity, and now are demanding it as if it was a birth right. By the very definition of our constitution, liberals are un-American. Go to Canada or France if that's your idea of nirvana. But don't make our country change for you.
What would motivate some one like you to sacrifice, work you a$$ off, and become wealthy if you get hand out? What would motivate me to work so hard, if most of my earnings go to feed a deadbeat like you? Socialism is nothing new. Don't you be stupid enough to wish for it.
jesus christ..what an idiotic post! when it's about one's money, all of a sudden shameless crap is spewed. how can you not have the most simple and basic understanding of economics? and you go on as if you know what the hell your talking about?
no one gets wealthy on their own, it's a damn pyramid scheme. why should someone work for you to get rich, how about that?
deadbeat? so if someone's not keen on making you rich, all of a sudden they are a deadbeat? dumb idiot.
helios is much more realistic and has a more broad and expansive view of the problem. not your retarded, narrow provincial views.
We should emulate the best system. I disagree there shouldn't be rationing. People tend to want every medical test imaginable. If they have cancer, say, they want every experimental procedure. If you don't make them wait or never deny seldom-necessary procedures, we'd be paying so much for health care that the bridges would fall down.
It would be great if you provided some examples. What's your field? Are you in healthcare?
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Have you ever seen those ads to get a free 50-point inspection of your car? Do you think they ever don't find anything wrong with the car? In our system, docs tend to over-order tests, because they & the hospital make $$$ that way. Tell someone they have cancer, you can make a quick $10K in tests. It's a scam.
Ok, for example, though? Please.
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When the public runs the health care system, and the administrators truly have the public's best interests at heart, along with a budget (maximum $$ they can spend), they can properly allocate the money. That may mean denying a test that history has shown is of little value in most cases. Sometimes a patient will die because the test would have been valuable in his/her case. So be it, if that means that 10 other people won't die because money was available for their more-effective tests. This is not like HMOs in the US, which seek to maximize profit, not provide the best overall care.
That's not good enough for me. If my loved one died because they didn't receive appropriate treatment because 'it happens' in socialized care, than that's not ok.
People that cannot afford care should have subsidized care. And it should also be expected that their quality of care will have limitations. The only people that should be denied any test are those that cannot afford it or lack the motivation to work.
I'm not saying that there isn't grave injustice going on in the healthcare system, of that I have no doubt. These injustices happen under the mindful watch of our government, which is a super-regulator. I have no doubt that they would continue under a guise of universal care.
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