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Old 04-22-2013, 09:01 AM
Status: "Made the Retirement Run in under 12 parsecs!!!" (set 6 days ago)
 
Location: Cary, NC
43,082 posts, read 76,642,306 times
Reputation: 45397

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisJames View Post
Your posts remind me of the "The New Yorker" print I have in my office, where people from NYC and vicinity think their regional area dominates space. http://imgc.artprintimages.com/image...4-YATF100Z.jpg. Having lived in NYC and still owning in NYC, with a sister who is a real estate broker, my observation is that real estate agents in your area are less reliant on MLS than the rest of the country; and that hard metrics like SQF as reported in widely available data bases are more important to transactions to the rest of the country. I suppose you are certainly right that in certain residential real estate asset classes, like luxury homes, square footage is not a significant factor, but for non-luxury homes, I think hard metrics like square footage will have a very significant role.

Funny, the agents around where I live, frequently remark that there is a gender driven quality to factors that men and women look at when buying homes. They observe that the men are always asking about sqf and women asking about other qualities of the home. My wife and I, however, are both concerned about square footage for future marketability. If this home we're to be our final resting spot, we'd be less concerned about it.

BTW, this is my last post here. The discrepancy was resolved by an amended appraisal. So it was much to do about nothing, but I appreciated the views of many here.
Good for all involved, IMO.
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Old 04-22-2013, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Columbia, SC
10,908 posts, read 21,874,385 times
Reputation: 10544
Quote:
Originally Posted by faabala View Post
In my part of NC we list a Square foot range i.e. 2100-2200 in our MLS. If you claim an exact measurement it better be right.

Everybody who measures will get a different number but it sounds like a large descrepancy in your house. I can see being off 100 but not over 200 sq. ft.
We list the SF in SC but are given a +/- 10%.

To the OP: How does the MLS and the contract spell out how discrepancies are handled, including earnest money on the appraisal? Also, how are 2 appraisals off by soooo much?
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Old 11-26-2013, 04:22 PM
 
10 posts, read 14,646 times
Reputation: 26
Default It Does Matter

I've been looking at homes in NC for over a year. I noticed that the listings show a range that can be several hundred sf in variance. I learned that it came about as a solution to the litigation waves from upset buyers. Those ranges make me uncomfortable, but I see that more than a few agents on these boards pooh pooh such concerns...grain of salt.

They talk about eye-balling a house to see if you like it as the sole decision point. "Ooh, bright and shiny!" No offense, but they're often talking about other people's money - of which they get a share. I agree with those who feel that if you're forward looking, you have to think about whether you plan to be misleading as well when and if you list that house in the future. All things being equal, I need to know. Besides, houses seem a little smaller after you've been in them for more than a half an hour.

I put in an offer on a house in the Charlotte area this year. The MLS docs showed a range of 4100-4500 sf. The flyers at the property put out by the listing agent showed over 4300 sf. The building permit and records showed 3700 sf with no further permits registered. The CO showed around 3700 sf. The flyer put out by the listing agent listed total sf of the house as well as individual room sf. I added up all of the sf measurements for the rooms in the flyer provided by the listing agent, allowed for a few hallways that I measured, and lo and behold, the square footage came up short by a few hundred square feet. They should have fudged all the way, IMO.

The selling agent and seller wouldn't budge. They started telling me how many more amenities were in that house compared to those around it. I agree that therein can lie the difference that makes strict sf analysis out-of-focus. Of course I checked. The other houses were by the same builder and had the same Brazilian Cherry and wrought iron stuff as this one. They still wouldn't budge. They were way over the average $/sf for the area...and they wanted more.

I optioned out.

Someone bought it 6 months later. It had already been on the market for more than a year when I found it. I hope they "like" their space and don't have to sell in the future.
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Old 11-26-2013, 04:42 PM
 
Location: Bloomington IN
8,590 posts, read 12,253,158 times
Reputation: 24243
Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrusBorg View Post
I added up all of the sf measurements for the rooms in the flyer provided by the listing agent, allowed for a few hallways that I measured, and lo and behold, the square footage came up short by a few hundred square feet..
If an appraiser or the county used exterior measurements, and most appraisers use exterior measurements, than of course the sq. ft. is smaller. My guess is you also did not include closets, stairs, etc. Using room measurements is the least used way of determining sq. ft.
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Old 11-26-2013, 04:49 PM
 
Location: The Triad
34,090 posts, read 82,565,007 times
Reputation: 43650
Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrusBorg View Post
I've been looking at homes in NC for over a year.
I noticed that the listings show a range that can be several hundred sf in variance.
I learned that it came about as a solution to the litigation waves from upset buyers.

They talk about eye-balling a house to see if you like it as the sole decision point.
Ultimately that is what it comes down to or not...

Quote:
The MLS docs showed a range of 4100-4500 sf.
The flyers at the property put out by the listing agent showed over 4300 sf.
The building permit and records showed 3700 sf
I optioned out.
That sounds like the far bigger problem down here with creative interpretations of Gross Living Area
that like to include lower level space as though it is all of a kind. It isn't. Which creates a bait & switch
sour taste when an online listing is read indicating the home has 4500sf GLA when it only has 3700sf GLA.
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Old 11-26-2013, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Florida -
10,213 posts, read 14,761,879 times
Reputation: 21845
Square footage is a critical measurement in Florida, particularly when it comes to Condos that always highlight SF and $ per SF. Of course, in condos, there are multiple units with the same floor plan and it is pretty difficult to 'fudge' the numbers.

Most MLS listings include room dimensions and overall SF, but, advise the buyer to verify all dimensions. I've noted several variations when it comes to "Under air" and "Enclosed space", with the latter often including screened rooms. Some folks will even try to put down a little tile/carpet in the garage and include that space!

Since re-sales invariably emphasize SF (and larger is always better); and since there doesn't seem to be a 'standard practice' for determining SF, it seems clear that this is a 'Buyer Beware' area. Anyone who is interested in or concerned about SF, should carry a tape/laser measuring device and verify dimensions for themselves. (Also, if a potential buyer 'measures SF at less than the advertised SF', it's a good negotiating point; plus a way to find out what the seller is using for their dimensions).
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Old 11-26-2013, 05:28 PM
 
Location: The Triad
34,090 posts, read 82,565,007 times
Reputation: 43650
Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
Most MLS listings include room dimensions and overall SF, but, advise the buyer to verify all dimensions.
Of course they should...

Quote:
Anyone who is interested in or concerned about SF...
And what buyer wouldn't be?

The point being about the seller and the listing agent and the MLS taking on the responsibility.
Consistently applied standards and definitions for what THEY have to sell is all it takes.

They don't even have to promulgate their own phrasing.
Just use the well known generally understood existing language... consistently.
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Old 11-26-2013, 05:31 PM
Status: "Made the Retirement Run in under 12 parsecs!!!" (set 6 days ago)
 
Location: Cary, NC
43,082 posts, read 76,642,306 times
Reputation: 45397
Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrusBorg View Post
I've been looking at homes in NC for over a year. I noticed that the listings show a range that can be several hundred sf in variance. I learned that it came about as a solution to the litigation waves from upset buyers. Those ranges make me uncomfortable, but I see that more than a few agents on these boards pooh pooh such concerns...grain of salt.

They talk about eye-balling a house to see if you like it as the sole decision point. "Ooh, bright and shiny!" No offense, but they're often talking about other people's money - of which they get a share. I agree with those who feel that if you're forward looking, you have to think about whether you plan to be misleading as well when and if you list that house in the future. All things being equal, I need to know. Besides, houses seem a little smaller after you've been in them for more than a half an hour.

I put in an offer on a house in the Charlotte area this year. The MLS docs showed a range of 4100-4500 sf. The flyers at the property put out by the listing agent showed over 4300 sf. The building permit and records showed 3700 sf with no further permits registered. The CO showed around 3700 sf. The flyer put out by the listing agent listed total sf of the house as well as individual room sf. I added up all of the sf measurements for the rooms in the flyer provided by the listing agent, allowed for a few hallways that I measured, and lo and behold, the square footage came up short by a few hundred square feet. They should have fudged all the way, IMO.

The selling agent and seller wouldn't budge. They started telling me how many more amenities were in that house compared to those around it. I agree that therein can lie the difference that makes strict sf analysis out-of-focus. Of course I checked. The other houses were by the same builder and had the same Brazilian Cherry and wrought iron stuff as this one. They still wouldn't budge. They were way over the average $/sf for the area...and they wanted more.

I optioned out.

Someone bought it 6 months later. It had already been on the market for more than a year when I found it. I hope they "like" their space and don't have to sell in the future.
Square footage in NC includes all the space from the exterior of the exterior in.
If you are measuring interior spaces to arrive at SF, you were doing it wrong.
Closets are included.
Wall cavities are included.
Etc.

What SF measurements did YOUR agent arrive at? Your agent is as responsible as the listing agent for accurate square footage.

SF measurement guidelines from the NC Real Estate Commission:
http://www.ncrec.gov/publications-bulletins/sqft.pdf
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Old 11-26-2013, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Columbia SC
14,201 posts, read 14,587,714 times
Reputation: 22009
I had an issue in my last sale. The builder had originally registered/recorded the house based on the base home. One option was a finished room over the garage which added another 300sq ft so the actual house was 300sq ft larger then the tax/county records showed.

I had copies of the original plans/offerings thus I could explain it when the issue came up.
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Old 12-02-2013, 01:17 AM
 
936 posts, read 2,195,440 times
Reputation: 938
The problem is that there isn't one agreed upon standard for measuring. So you'll get differing amounts based upon who does the measuring, and for what purpose.

That's why you need to measure the house yourself if it's a critical piece of data that you need to know. Appraisers (I'm one) measure based upon exterior measurements. But even then, there are variations depending of how the outside walls are constructed. It's really easy with a large house to have differing areas into a few hundred square feet if you have any interior open spaces whose dimensions have to be extended into the outside dimensions (which requires estimates and rounding).
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