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I think comparing the stock market and the real estate market is like comparing apples and oranges.
I'm not looking to argue at all. I would sincerely like to know why you think this. You and I definitely have a different perspective on this because you are a speculator and I am simply dreaming of owning a home before I die.
Historically, house values have appreciated and became a given. Everyone expected that to continue. However, just because it was always that way does not mean that every person who signed on the dotted line to purchase a home was also getting a guarantee that the home would increase in value (or even stay the same in value) year after year and that if at some point in the future they decided to sell they would pocket a very tidy profit.
This sounds very much to me like stocks, many of which were providing nice returns year after year for a long time and nobody imagined that these companies would stop providing these returns. Then they did and people lost money and lived through the fallout of that or they held on and waited for the market to come back again.
I've heard very often that stocks are long term investments and if you're looking for the quick bucks you need to invest in other, more speculative/high return investments. If you have the patience to wait out the market it will come around again.
I view housing the same way. If you can make the payments and love your home then live in it, appreciate it and stop following some imaginary numbers that have nothing to do with you unless you have to sell.
If you do have to sell, look at all the options available to you, choose the least bitter pill, swallow it and move on.
Huh? I think you must've been talking to someone else. I didn't have a spelling error nor did I get pissed b/c someone called attention to my spelling error. But it's okay. People make mistakes and others make too big of a deal of it.
You're right. My apologies. My response was for Flat2MT.
No problem. I don't get angered or upset on the internet. I just state my positions and opinions and sometimes defend someone getting unjustly attacked, but other than that, it's the internet, ya know?
Anyway, about the stock market and the real estate market. My feelings are this: If you invest in either you can make or lose money. That's about the only thing they have in common.
Stocks are much more liquid and a lot easier to get out of than real estate.
When stock hits a certain bottom, the company is likely to go bankrupt and you will get nothing. With real estate, no matter it's "worth," if you're living in it and don't have to sell it, then you always have your house.
Home values have not always been "a given." Ask some people in the midwest who have owned their same house forever without ever seeing any appreciation, even in the boom times. It depends on your local market.
Unlike most stock transactions, a real estate investment employs tremendous leverage. Most buyers do not pay cash and very few put more than 20% down. And a heck of a lot of buyers, in the not too distant past, bought a heck of a lot of real estate, with little to no skin in the game.
Unlike stock, a real estate investment requires the investor to pay property taxes, holding costs and cannot be immediately liquidated.
Unlike stock, you can live in your real estate investment and we all have to live somewhere.
The value of our stock portfolio and real estate holdings is determined by the market......buyers and their determination of value, at any point in time. That I bought Google at $700 ( no I did not) does not mean diddly to the market, that today is only willing to pay me $359 a share.
In real estate, in most markets, more properties are for sale than there are people willing and able to buy them, at the prices being asked, regardless of why sellers are asking those prices. Inventory of unsold properties is what changes buyers' perception of value.
So long as unsold inventories remain at record highs, values will continue to decline. Prices will not go back up until inventories go down.
Lots of bitterness on here - yikes! I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and calm down. Buyers often complain on here about sellers being unreasonable, etc. Well... behind closed doors, I've heard real estate agents complain about the ludicrous expectations of today's buyers. So - it's all a matter of perspective. Yes, some homes are greatly overpriced - but not all. If you're so picky that you can't find a good home in today's down market, then build one or slap a smile on your face and keep looking. If renting is so economically wise for you, then enjoy the prolonged thrill of the house hunt. Sometimes I think buyer's doth protest too much!!! Anyway - I've been hearing lots of talk about how we COULD (maybe) be at the bottom of the housing market. No one knows how long we will stay at the bottom before starting to rise again but some experts think it will happen sooner rather than later. As far as personal experience, I have my home listed at a higher price than I did last year and I'm getting more showings this year! I'm not anticipating a quick sell because it's a very unique home (not cookie cutter) in a super stable neighborhood (low key, off the map, exclusive) but signs of real estate life are out there! My good friend sold her house in one day with the buyers agreeing to let her and her family continue to live in it (rent it) until my friend's new house is finished being built. Don't sound like bully buyers to me? I think the idea of a buyer's market may be overblown in SOME areas - not all. It's all a matter of perspective.
Great post. Good luck to you - sounds like you'll do great!
OK. I see this a lot lately. I assume it means they are open to listening to any offer? They want to sell ASAP.
If that is the case why not lower your damn price and motivate buyers. Am I the crazy one? Why do I care if the seller is motivated if they are still unwilling to price the house correctly? Maybe they are just motivated in wasting buyers time with their overpriced house. NEXT!
While I don't follow the market there, I do follow in towns around it. From what I see on the search in your price, I highly doubt they are going to come down much lower. You are paying for the area as it is desirable due to the train to Philly. As I said, I don't know the market there, but there is only so much land, and according to what I see, there doesn't appear to be any land in Haddonfield.
Your best bet might be to change your area. There is a lot of land by me, tons of new houses for what you're paying for a used house there.
IIRC, you relocated here to NJ from Texas. Totally different market.
If you really need that area; hold out to see what happens by the end of May when the market slows. You'll have a better chance of offering lower to someone that needs to sell. June was a dry month in 2007. Since we were closed the end of May, I don't know how dry it was last year, but I don't doubt it was just as dry as 2007.
Haddonfield is on my list along with Collingswood and Haddon Twp. Haddonfield is a long shot due to the insanely high taxes and since I don't and won't have children I have a hard time paying extra taxes for schools I won't be taking advantage of there.
There is SOME land in the area but very few lots. Between the 3 towns I am guessing 10-12 lots of land maybe. So you can build if you want to and can afford it.
Yes TX is candyland compared to NJ. You can go out with $300k in TX and buy 100 versions of ones dream home where in NJ $300k buys you a dump. I knew that being from NJ but learned I would rather live in an area I like and be around people I like more so than living in a nice house in the middle of nowhere.
Haddonfield prices are dropping though. 2 years ago I think very few if ANY sales were under $300k but now more and more are popping up right near that price and several under. Is it taking a 20% killing? No. But it is correcting itself some. But like I said the taxes there are just mind boggling.
The thing that is annoying is very few new listings are popping up. The ones that are all the leftovers from last year and winter being relisted. There was a week or two that had a bunch of new listings but since then not much. So I sit and wait for the right place. My ideal spot is near the speedline and near Cooper River. Which is nice since it is an area I can afford 95% of the houses but so far nothing has been the one for us.
While I don't follow the market there, I do follow in towns around it. From what I see on the search in your price, I highly doubt they are going to come down much lower. You are paying for the area as it is desirable due to the train to Philly. As I said, I don't know the market there, but there is only so much land, and according to what I see, there doesn't appear to be any land in Haddonfield.
Your best bet might be to change your area. There is a lot of land by me, tons of new houses for what you're paying for a used house there.
IIRC, you relocated here to NJ from Texas. Totally different market.
If you really need that area; hold out to see what happens by the end of May when the market slows. You'll have a better chance of offering lower to someone that needs to sell. June was a dry month in 2007. Since we were closed the end of May, I don't know how dry it was last year, but I don't doubt it was just as dry as 2007.
I knew that being from NJ but learned I would rather live in an area I like and be around people I like more so than living in a nice house in the middle of nowhere.
Haddonfield prices are dropping though. 2 years ago I think very few if ANY sales were under $300k but now more and more are popping up right near that price and several under. Is it taking a 20% killing? No. But it is correcting itself some. But like I said the taxes there are just mind boggling.
The thing that is annoying is very few new listings are popping up. The ones that are all the leftovers from last year and winter being relisted. There was a week or two that had a bunch of new listings but since then not much. So I sit and wait for the right place.
So are you saying that location still matters? I thought location, location, location had been replaced with price, price, price?
WHAT? The area that you LOVE hasn't seen 20-50% price drops? WTH? You almost had me convinced that I was crazy that my area hadn't done that and I was delusional because I thought so. WHEW! Good to know. And since you've been waiting and waiting for that perfect house at that perfect price and you haven't seen it, yet we've been in this CRISIS for almost two years, is it just possible that your expectations are WHACKO?
How annoying it must be for you that all sellers in YOUR favorite neighborhood did not buy more than they could afford, do NOT want to move, and are PERFECTLY FINE WHERE THEY ARE!!! Those b*stards!! How dare they!!! LOL!!
Keep sitting and waiting. That is your right.
But surely you can even see they irony in this post!!!
So are you saying that location still matters? I thought location, location, location had been replaced with price, price, price?
I think this is a personal thing. Some people only care about $/sqft and are fine with a 60 minute commute. So price is more of a factor to them. Where I HATE commuting far so I have limited myself to a SMALL area which benefits me in terms of lifestyle and commute. So personally I am willing to pay extra (and will have to) to be where I want to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsFancyPants
WHAT? The area that you LOVE hasn't seen 20-50% price drops? WTH? You almost had me convinced that I was crazy that my area hadn't done that and I was delusional because I thought so. WHEW! Good to know. And since you've been waiting and waiting for that perfect house at that perfect price and you haven't seen it, yet we've been in this CRISIS for almost two years, is it just possible that your expectations are WHACKO?
NJ has been late to the correction game. Prices have surely dropped and continue to drop. What % I am not 100% sure nor do I care. I know what is on the market, what fair market value is for the most part, and what a house is worth when I see it.
I don't think my expectations are whacko at all. I am not preaching doom and gloom. I am not expecting NJ to get back to a 3x income to price ratio in the area I want to live in. Even if it was like that 10 years ago. But when you see me complain about sellers it is the subset (which is a high % sadly) that lists their houses MUCH higher than all the comps in the area. I know where the value point is on houses in my area. I can see a house and think it is priced WELL or within reason yet not like it due to the street it is on, layout, etc...
I have been looking for a house for 6 months. (Oct 08- today)
During that time I have adjust my thinking a tad and have reduced the area I want to live in from several areas to 2-3 towns. (all small areas)
So the pool of houses I am looking at within my price range is fairly small. If I was willing to go over a neighborhood (Cherry Hill for example) I would be able to find a house in a single weekend easy. ANd that area is arguably a better location in terms of schools, etc... But it is not what we want for our own reasons even if most people would be fine there.
So I think my VERY tight focus on area is the main reason I am still looking. These are 80+ year old homes. Many with very few updates ever. We have seen houses that would work and those houses tend to sell quickly. We regret not making an offer on 1 and another we were within 4% in price with our offer to sale price.
I admit I am picky. I have the luxury to be picky and not have to jump on a house just to buy a house. The fact I have seen 2+ houses I would BUY and both very close to prices I would have paid tells me I am close to price/area/etc.... Maybe I need to get over that last $10k in price to go from renter to owner but I can also wait and realistically get my price on the houses I like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsFancyPants
How annoying it must be for you that all sellers in YOUR favorite neighborhood did not buy more than they could afford, do NOT want to move, and are PERFECTLY FINE WHERE THEY ARE!!! Those b*stards!! How dare they!!! LOL!!
Keep sitting and waiting. That is your right.
But surely you can even see they irony in this post!!!
There are foreclosures and short sales popping up in my area. Not a large # but they account for 5-10% maybe. The inventory levels are over 12+ months in my area. So people WANT to move, people bought more than than could afford, even in the area I want to live in.
The only irony I see in your post is that you think your response was witty when it was really just a reflection of your situation of denial.
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And since you've been waiting and waiting for that perfect house at that perfect price and you haven't seen it, yet we've been in this CRISIS for almost two years, is it just possible that your expectations are WHACKO?
