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Nothing to argue with in ETex's post. The very reason there is controversy is because there is so much room for interpretation.
If you end up with the question in court or even a third party review the amount you have spent may or may not be crucial, the opinion of appraisers may or may not be crucial, the statement of the elected officials may or may not be crucial, the assessed value may or may not be crucial, et cetera.
From what you've said so far it sound like the town has a "wish list" which is all well and good, but what you need DETAILS ON is what the they have money ear marked for. If they are willing to spend money, either from taxes or grants or any other source then you can get a sense for which properties on their wish list make the most sense for them to attempt to buy.
If you fixate on any one aspect of your property you will lose sight of what the real upsides are for yourself and the town. It may be that you COULD do better selling, but with out knowing if the town is just doing "pie in the sky" planning it would be foolish to even enter into negotiations with them.
I do think it is good to watch the public meetings, but you need to also get the history of what has been attempted before and find out the background / connections of the elected officials. Probably also makes sense to strengthen your network of townspeople who may support you if there is an opportunity to vote or even just to have a 'public hearing'.
Nothing to argue with in ETex's post. The very reason there is controversy is because there is so much room for interpretation.
If you end up with the question in court or even a third party review the amount you have spent may or may not be crucial, the opinion of appraisers may or may not be crucial, the statement of the elected officials may or may not be crucial, the assessed value may or may not be crucial, et cetera.
From what you've said so far it sound like the town has a "wish list" which is all well and good, but what you need DETAILS ON is what the they have money ear marked for. If they are willing to spend money, either from taxes or grants or any other source then you can get a sense for which properties on their wish list make the most sense for them to attempt to buy.
If you fixate on any one aspect of your property you will lose sight of what the real upsides are for yourself and the town. It may be that you COULD do better selling, but with out knowing if the town is just doing "pie in the sky" planning it would be foolish to even enter into negotiations with them.
I do think it is good to watch the public meetings, but you need to also get the history of what has been attempted before and find out the background / connections of the elected officials. Probably also makes sense to strengthen your network of townspeople who may support you if there is an opportunity to vote or even just to have a 'public hearing'.
Lots of work to do...
hey chet,
i think you're getting where i'm going and/or trying to do here. i have reached out to the few people i've met thus far BUT not knowing them all that well, i need to watch my tongue and/or back. my father and i were the only non board members in this meeting room and neither of us made a statement or asked questions, when opened to public comment.
eminent domain is a 4 letter word in this area of the state. as i mentioned previously, E.D. was implemented, on a HUGE SCALE, in the late 50's early 60's. it ruined 5 towns and displaced many people who had owned their properties for generations... some from the revolutionary period. most of the board are life long residents, hard working, blue collar workers/farmers and struck me and my dad as "good people". both the mayor and chairperson stated on the record NO property will be acquired from ANY non-willing sellers. that having been said i know "talk is cheap" and that may not mean much, in todays world.
you mentioned a wish list and shopping... that is exactly what it appears to be and they said so, on the record. the mayor explained the board has been working on COAH and their time to get a shovel in the ground is running out. moreover, he/they said their town WILL NOT go after ANY property unless the seller is willing. my property boarders town property on 2 sides and will probably suite their needs well. next door is their post office and behind me is the road dept... their buildings are on a 4 acre tract and with my house, cottage and garage (foot print) their options are great.
my concern is... i put ALL my money into this property and it took me the better part of 1 year to put this (non-conventional) deal together. i put down a NON REFUNDABLE deposit and paid for most of the oil tank REMEDIATION (30K) before i closed... again NON REFUNDABLE. no one else had the B@LLS to get involved in this property and i did ALL THE HEAVY LIFTING and/or RISK TAKING... why should i just walk away with a few more $'s than i threw (cash/outright) at this "dog" that everyone else was afraid of... including the town!?!? as i said... for the right $'s i have come to the decision i WILL sell to them, so the town can do what they need to. HOWEVER, i'm not going to walk away with a couple more $'s than i invested CASH/OUTRIGHT, having nowhere else to go! i need enough $'s to make it worth my while and more importantly to purchase a "comp" . it would be FUNDAMENTALLY UNFAIR to offer me a few more $'s than i shelled out and send me on my way. should that be the case, i will not be able to buy ANYTHING other than a burned out/run down bungalow. i need to be offered "just compensation" for a "comparable property" (size, zoning and income potential)... isn't that the only FAIR way to resolve this, for all parties?
i appreciate your comments, suggestions and concerns. at this point i think i can trust this town, what i am trying to do is cover ALL my bases just in case, you dig? if you have anything further, i look forward to hearing it. thanks again. hope all is well. have a good one.
Unfortunately, I think what you are going to find is that replacement value, which is basically what you are looking for, is not the measure of a condemnation award. At least under Texas law. But then again, you seem pretty adamant that the city isn't going to condemn, so I'm not sure that the measure of damages in a condemnation is all that important. If the city is going to only buy from willing sellers, then treat it just like any other random buyer who walks up and makes an offer. Decide what it would take for you to sell, give 'em your price and if they don't want to pay it you can test how serious they are when they say condemnation is out of the question.
Unfortunately, I think what you are going to find is that replacement value, which is basically what you are looking for, is not the measure of a condemnation award. At least under Texas law. But then again, you seem pretty adamant that the city isn't going to condemn, so I'm not sure that the measure of damages in a condemnation is all that important. If the city is going to only buy from willing sellers, then treat it just like any other random buyer who walks up and makes an offer. Decide what it would take for you to sell, give 'em your price and if they don't want to pay it you can test how serious they are when they say condemnation is out of the question.
hey austin,
thanks for your reply. i'm doing exactly as you say... testing the waters. i may be young and inexperienced but i do know when dealing with ANY level of government, what i'll need is a plan a,b,c,d, etc.
not to beat a "dead horse" but i pay taxes, am a (real) property owner and a lifelong US citizen. this property is NOT investment... it is (will be soon) my primary residence. i am in a rental now and once i'm happy with the restoration of my (circa 1847) house/property, i will then move in. I HAVE A CO... always have!
if (as you state) condemnation is different than replacement cost, there needs to be a BLACK AND WHITE DEFINITION somewhere, for all to see! i can relate to ED's "original" intent and/or application regarding a property which will "benefit" many, is physically dangerous and/or has been discarded but my situation is FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT.
I DID ALL THE HEAVY LIFTING, PUT MY NECK (AND BIG MONEY) ON THE CHOPPING BLOCK, TOOK ON THE DOG EVERYONE ELSE WAS AFRAID OF, etc... I ASK YOU WHY, AFTER THIS YEAR LONG, "BLOODY FIGHT" WHICH LEFT ME "TIRED AND WORN OUT ($)", WOULD IT BE FAIR FOR SOMEONE (ANYONE) TO COME INTO THE ARENA AND TAKE THE "TROPHY" FROM MY HANDS... AFTER THE FIGHT IS OVER? if "that's the way it (our government) goes", then the WWE (professional wrestling) has helped to re-write and/or take a dump on the constitution, which was so carefully "constructed" by our forefathers.
if i hear responses like "that's just the way it goes", then IMO this once great country is officially burnt toast and more disturbing... full of a bunch of complacent, clueless, P#$$y's! i am concerned with my property BUT if this is "just the way it goes", i'm even more concerned with everyone else's property/rights and/or the lack thereof.
it erks me that this once great country (we the people) has turned into a bad (science) experiment. put a frog in a pot of cold water and GRADUALLY turn up the heat. what happens?... the frog will remain complacent and/or content, oblivious to the change of temp, right up to the moment it's been COOKED!
not the right forum but "we the people", better get up off our collective A$$ES and do something!!! this country's going down in record speed. it's time to get back to the basics... do you all know what your representatives are voting in as law on a daily basis, here or more importantly in DC?
as i see it... too many sheeple and/or knuckleheads walking around like zombies with blinders on, playing with their ipods and/or technology designed to keep them appeased, distracted and more importantly identified within inches of where you are standing. i don't want any devise which will rob me of my basic God given rights!!!
i'm not buying the "CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN"... what i see is the slight of hand trick... distract em with the one hand and pick their pockets (rights) with the other! we all (pay dearly for and) deserve better. wake up and look around, it's not so simple and/or pretty once you remove the government issued "beer googles" they've been passing out for years.
" get an attorney"
" contact groups that will support you"
In my long life I have observed several things abot ED.
Be firm on your own. Hiring lawyers and joining support groups will drain your checkbook ( lawyer) and turn you into a fanatic( support groups)
When the dust clears, you have gained nothing.
I saw this played out with friends and neighbors who tried to fight ED over a pipeline , powerline, road, and a bike trail.
Save your money and save your sanity.The neighbors who agreed got the SAME price as the ones who fought it and didn't end up with a steep lawyers bill in the end.
" get an attorney"
" contact groups that will support you"
In my long life I have observed several things abot ED.
Be firm on your own. Hiring lawyers and joining support groups will drain your checkbook ( lawyer) and turn you into a fanatic( support groups)
When the dust clears, you have gained nothing.
I saw this played out with friends and neighbors who tried to fight ED over a pipeline , powerline, road, and a bike trail.
Save your money and save your sanity.The neighbors who agreed got the SAME price as the ones who fought it and didn't end up with a steep lawyers bill in the end.
hey mar,
thanks for your comments and concerns... like i said i THINK i'm ok at this point, just looking to cover my bases and A$$.
i'm still hoping someone, on here, knows of a place where i can read, in black and white, the legal definition of ED and the SPECIFIC RULES which need to be followed BY THE GOVERNMENT.
i'm not fighting over a silly pipeline, road or bike path, i'm fighting for ("concerned" about keeping) the roof over my head. i paid and FOUGHT HARD for this particular property, when others... including the (local) government were afraid to. moreover, i'm paying taxes on this property with the (tax assessed) value determined by them (government). now you're telling me, WELL AFTER THE FACT/FIGHT, i can be forced to move and/or accept a "settlement" which is considerably less (60-70K) than what i'm being taxed on? furthermore, after i do all the risk taking and hard work, i should be pushed aside and sent on my way with a few (10-20k) more $ than i shelled (cash) out to purchase, REMIDIATE, close, maintain, etc.? does this sound right, ethical and/or legal to you?
even though i think i'm ok, i just may join support groups to help/support others and hopefully keep this (HOSTILE TAKEOVERS) from happening to all those hardworking us citizens in similar situations to mine. do i accept the need for ED... yes, BUT with very specific rules, regulations and/or compensation limitations. i don't care what the property looks like and/or what it may need, NEVER SHOULD ED COMPENSATION BE LESS THAN THE TAX ASSESSED VALUE OF ANY PROPERTY!!!
thanks for your comments and concerns... like i said i THINK i'm ok at this point, just looking to cover my bases and A$$.
i'm still hoping someone, on here, knows of a place where i can read, in black and white, the legal definition of ED and the SPECIFIC RULES which need to be followed BY THE GOVERNMENT.
i'm not fighting over a silly pipeline, road or bike path, i'm fighting for ("concerned" about keeping) the roof over my head. i paid and FOUGHT HARD for this particular property, when others... including the (local) government were afraid to. moreover, i'm paying taxes on this property with the (tax assessed) value determined by them (government). now you're telling me, WELL AFTER THE FACT/FIGHT, i can be forced to move and/or accept a "settlement" which is considerably less (60-70K) than what i'm being taxed on? furthermore, after i do all the risk taking and hard work, i should be pushed aside and sent on my way with a few (10-20k) more $ than i shelled (cash) out to purchase, REMIDIATE, close, maintain, etc.? does this sound right, ethical and/or legal to you?
even though i think i'm ok, i just may join support groups to help/support others and hopefully keep this (HOSTILE TAKEOVERS) from happening to all those hardworking us citizens in similar situations to mine. do i accept the need for ED... yes, BUT with very specific rules, regulations and/or compensation limitations. i don't care what the property looks like and/or what it may need, NEVER SHOULD ED COMPENSATION BE LESS THAN THE TAX ASSESSED VALUE OF ANY PROPERTY!!!
The laws, definitions, and regulations are specific to your state. Try contacting an appraiser in your state who does eminent domain work, or your state DOT - appraisal or acquisition division.
With all due respect, I think it is important in a situation like this to understand the process, be reasonable and not let reality get out of sight. If I recall correctly from your posts, you are a young person just getting started in your adult life. You're at a stage when most people have few resources. You are not really the ideal candidate to mount any kind of fight over ideals and "how it should be" in eminent domain. You simply don't have the resources to succeed. Even David couldn't have beaten Goliath without his weapon. You have no weapon (money).
There is an established way of determining compensation in your state. Generally it's going to be fair market value. In some cases, particularly where there is a business operating at the property, there is additional compensation for interruption of the business. You might also be able to factor in moving expenses. The point is, it is not a shoot-from-the-hip scenario. Find some condemnation court cases from your state and probably every one of them will recite what the state's definition of fair market value is, and how it's determined. There is really not much use for someone in your shoes to try to change that by saying you should get fair market value plus the value of the work you put into the property. The definition of FMV should already take that work into consideration, but it's not valued at your costs or efforts, it's valued at the worth or value that results from your efforts.
An important lesson to learn, if you intend to be a real estate investor, is that you can spend way more time, money and effort on a property than it's worth. If you were selling your house on the open market, and you decided to spend $20,000 on new tile for your kitchen and bathrooms, how far do you think you would get by demanding that, at the very minimum, buyers HAVE TO pay you the value of the house on the tax rolls PLUS $20,000, since the $20,000 was invested after the tax rolls were determined? That's not how it works. You have no *right* to get out of your property what you put into it.
What you can do is argue that their determination of fair market value is not accurate. Instead, it sounds like you are arguing fairness, replacement value, the time and effort you spent acquiring the property, etc. Unfortunately, again, that work does not matter at all, except to the extent it affects the fair market value of the property. So if an appraisal is done and your property is valued at $X, based on the assumption that there are no underground storage tanks, then you won't get very far by arguing that you should get more money because you spent money removing tanks. You're already being compensated for those efforts because the UST-free condition of the site is taken into account in the FMV determination. If their determination of FMV assumes a dirty site, then heck yeah the removal of the tanks is relevant.
That's not to say that the assessed value of the property on the tax rolls - which obviously seems to be a big issue with you - has absolutely no relevance. It might. But it isn't, and it shouldn't be, a floor on the compensation you are entitled to. Fair market value can and does go down. The tax rolls show what the value was estimated to be at one time. The fair market value may be lower now. It may be higher. You are welcome to argue why you think the actual value is higher now than it was when the tax assessor valued the property. There is a procedure for that, and that is where you stand to make a difference in your situation. But you have to be aware of the method that is accepted in the state to determine fair market value, and you pretty much have to work within that framework. Again, it would be too costly to force a change that framework.
I may be telling you things you already know for the most part. I think you are here trying to find out if anyone knows what the method is in your state of determining fair market value in condemnations. Judging from the responses, I think the answer is no. So you just need to do some research, starting with trying to find cases that describe how FMV is determined for condemnation cases in your state. Then you have to look at what you are being offered, how the gov't came up with that number, and try to shoot holes in it based on the offer not being determined in compliance with the accepted methodology. Usually it boils down to competing appraisals, and then your ability (or the ability of your attorney) to convincingly argue that the way your appraisal was conducted was more correct than the way the gov't's appraisal was conducted.
But I really do not believe that you will make any headway by trying to change the methodology by saying it's not fair that the fair market value is less than the amount of time you put into the property or that the assessed valuation on the tax rolls should be a minimum. If you can prove that values in your neighborhood have only increased since the tax appraisal, that can be evidence that FMV is higher than it was at the time of the tax appraisal. But a blanket argument that FMV can never be lower than the tax appraisal is not convincing at all.
Best of luck.
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