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[quote=sailordave;9723569]Let's see. There are HOAs that will not give a prospective buyer a list of their regulations until after the sale.[quote]
Actually it's very easy to get a copy of that information prior to purchasing the home, Have the seller provide it. Until you are an owner, the HOA is under no obligation to you, and frankly HOA documents are NOT public record and shouldn't be given willy-nilly to anybody who requests them. The seller of the property can very easily obtain and distribute these documents, and it should be up to them to do so, not the HOA.
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There are home owners who buy a home in a non-hoa area only to discover an hoa develop around them and are given the choice of either paying the dues and be a member of the hoa or sell the home and leave.
Actually that's not possible. Once your home is deeded, the deed can't be changed except by legal condemnation. So either you bought a place and didn't pay attention to what you are buying, or you've got no clue what you're talking about.
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Do you not remember the case of the hoa that kicked an 82 year old lady out the home she and her dead husband bought and paid for because she could no longer afford to pay the dues now that her husband died.
If she couldn't afford it, she shouldn't have been living there. If she's not paying it means her neighbors are paying for her. Frankly I have my own bills, I have no desire to give my enighbors a free ride. While I empathize with her, the only person to blame is her husband for not providing properly for her.
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In Dallas, the president of the hoa personally sent a Marine veteran a warning letter stating that his Marine stickers on the car were a violation of no advertisement on vehiciles and he'd be fined and his car towed if he didn't remove them. The story went nation wide, including the video of the Obama08 bumper stickers. The president of the hoa backed down after the national pressure and pressure from other board members came down on her.
Well that's just stupid, and exactly the reason we have a committee that makes sure things like this don't ahppen where I live.
[quote=annerk;9724241][quote=sailordave;9723569]Let's see. There are HOAs that will not give a prospective buyer a list of their regulations until after the sale.
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Actually it's very easy to get a copy of that information prior to purchasing the home, Have the seller provide it. Until you are an owner, the HOA is under no obligation to you, and frankly HOA documents are NOT public record and shouldn't be given willy-nilly to anybody who requests them. The seller of the property can very easily obtain and distribute these documents, and it should be up to them to do so, not the HOA.
Actually that's not possible. Once your home is deeded, the deed can't be changed except by legal condemnation. So either you bought a place and didn't pay attention to what you are buying, or you've got no clue what you're talking about.
If she couldn't afford it, she shouldn't have been living there. If she's not paying it means her neighbors are paying for her. Frankly I have my own bills, I have no desire to give my enighbors a free ride. While I empathize with her, the only person to blame is her husband for not providing properly for her.
Well that's just stupid, and exactly the reason we have a committee that makes sure things like this don't ahppen where I live.
So glad to know that you're the type of person who would evict an 82 year old woman from the home she owns based upon being less than $1,000 behind on HOA fees. A home in which her and her husband paid out in full with title in hand. Such a cold hearted person should never be responsible over the lives of others. I'm SOOO sure that this 82 year old woman utilized the facilities of the HOA.
Oh, and with all the national and local negative publicity this case made, the HOA settled out of court resulting in her getting back her home along with cash, the person who bought her $150,000 home for $6,000 received $95,000 from the HOA. When she realized she was behind on dues she wrote a check for the $800 she owned but they refused to cash the check and had already started legal proceedings to kick her out and had tacked on penalties bringing the total to about $6,000 that they said she owned. If they were a lending institution they'd be called loan sharks.
Oh, and with all the national and local negative publicity this case made, the HOA settled out of court resulting in her getting back her home along with cash, the person who bought her $150,000 home for $6,000 received $95,000 from the HOA. When she realized she was behind on dues she wrote a check for the $800 she owned but they refused to cash the check and had already started legal proceedings to kick her out and had tacked on penalties bringing the total to about $6,000 that they said she owned. If they were a lending institution they'd be called loan sharks.
If she had tried to settle up before the HOA foreclosed, the HOA was a bunch of idiots. Where I live they will forgive late fees but they won't forgive legal fees. But as long as someone makes a good faith effort to pay arrearages and keeps current with the current month, we'll work with them. They'd be stupid not to. I didn't read the article so didn't realize the woman had tried to pay up--in that case I agree with you, the HOA board are a bunch of lunatics.
On the otherhand I've got neighbors with $300K of cars in their driveway and garage who are behind on their HOA dues. Do you think for one minute that we should cut them a break? They flaunt wealth but expect the rest of us to cover their living espenses. I don't think so.
This may be an older post, but the ignorance requires correction
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Originally Posted by annerk
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Originally Posted by sailordave
Let's see. There are HOAs that will not give a prospective buyer a list of their regulations until after the sale.
Actually it's very easy to get a copy of that information prior to purchasing the home, Have the seller provide it. Until you are an owner, the HOA is under no obligation to you, and frankly HOA documents are NOT public record and shouldn't be given willy-nilly to anybody who requests them. The seller of the property can very easily obtain and distribute these documents, and it should be up to them to do so, not the HOA.
Contrary to your representations, it isn't as easy to obtain the information as you claim. That information is held by the HOA, not the seller. The seller has little power to compel the HOA to provide the information in a timely fashion in most states. Moreover, the HOAs have zero liability as far as the loss of the home sale. The buyers can walk if they ask for but are not provided the requested information by the seller. So withholding the information is a tactic frequently used by HOA Boards and management companies to extort money or other concessions from the seller.
Second of all, why shouldn't the information be publicly available? What's the big secret and what are you trying to hide? All the industry folks and feeble-minded claim that HOAs "preserve property values" and that people "knew it when they moved in". Really? If the HOA was such a great thing, why do you feel the need to conceal the documents you refer to from prospective purchasers? It's quite amazing that you don't believe that prospective purchasers should have access to anything other than "what they can see" until after they have signed a sales contract and paid earnest money (from your earlier post).
The only people that want to keep the information "secret" are those that have something to hide and of course the management companies which want it to be kept "secret". The management companies want "secrecy" in order to create an opportunity to "sell" the information AND to have the exclusive right to sell that information to prospective purchasers. The management company would gladly take "free money" to sell the information to anyone. The same information is provided to your prospective purchasers as well as prospective purchasers for any other house in your neighborhood. The house isn't owned by the HOA, but the HOA is an involuntary membership HOA. The information should be made publicly available.
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Originally Posted by annerk
Actually that's not possible. Once your home is deeded, the deed can't be changed except by legal condemnation. So either you bought a place and didn't pay attention to what you are buying, or you've got no clue what you're talking about.
Actually Annerk it is possible and the big flaw with HOAs is that you don't own what you thought you bought. Your "deed" reflects title but does not prevent the property from being burdened with additional restrictions or liabilities. (i.e., a taking) Unlike a governmental condemnation, however, you will not be receiving any compensation.
As to HOAs, your neighbors can decide to make you part of a mandatory HOA by adding restrictive covenants to accomplish that objective. (See, e.g., Texas Property Code §201, 204, 210, 211. There are similar statutes in other states and the HOA industry has been promulgate laws like the Uniform Planned Community Act and the Uniform Common Interest Ownership Act to accomplish something similar in virtually every state). So first, you no longer have the right to say "no" even if one did not exist at the time of your purchase. Also, even if the HOA existed the purchaser may not have been put on notice of it due to unrecorded documents or suppressed documents (see your own earlier post). You want buyers to see the home but don't want them to easily learn about the legal entanglement that the HOA represents.
Second, once in an HOA you have no right to prohibit ever more restrictive amendments from burdening your property as determined by the HOA. There is no "right of refusal" nor is there any "compensation for takings". Typically there is also not a right to vote. The "right" can be taken away by the board AND you won't know that was done because of "secret" voting. Creating fines, adopting resolutions to entangle assessments with fines, and then accusing homeowners of being in violation of a restrictive covenant just prior to an election are frequent tactics employed by HOA Boards (who are advised by the management companies and HOA attorneys) in the state of Texas. Of course, that's assuming that you live somewhere other than a declarant controlled subdivision. If the latter, then you might never have any "right" to vote anyway.
In declarant controlled subdivisions, the homeowners often won't have any vote for decades, if ever. Even in "homeowner" controlled HOAs, your vote can be ignored and your consent is irrelevant. This FACT is being used by whomever controls the HOA to impose all sorts of additional restrictions on property that is not owned by the HOA. Voting control is routinely exerted by bylaws and bylaw amendments. Developers will give themselves multiple votes per lot, unilateral voting control, or some other mechanism which allows them to burden your property using the HOA long after your purchase and even long after the period of declarant control which itself does not have to be limited. Homeowner boards develop "nominating committees", "current board approval", "proxies", and "resolutions" to ensure entrenched cliques remain entrenched.
So your property can be burdened by an HOA after your purchase. The HOA can saddle your property with unlimited restrictions and unlimited liability after you purchase (imposition of liens than can never be paid off and which you have no control over). You seem to like HOAs so much but are operating under a mistaken belief. Wait until you are no longer part of the entrenched clique and the new HOA Board decides to take something from you.
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Originally Posted by annerk
If she couldn't afford it, she shouldn't have been living there. If she's not paying it means her neighbors are paying for her. Frankly I have my own bills, I have no desire to give my enighbors a free ride. While I empathize with her, the only person to blame is her husband for not providing properly for her.
Well that's just stupid, and exactly the reason we have a committee that makes sure things like this don't ahppen where I live.
You mean a lynch mob that isn't subject to the constitutional protections afforded to citizens of other "governments" that wield such power over them and their property?
The Wenonah Blevins case made national news. Unfortunately, the subsequent "Texas Property Owners Protection Act" purportedly written to protect the likes of Wenonah was actually authored by Senator John Carona - owner of the largest legion of HOA management companies in the U.S. Think he was trying to protect homeowners? Of course not. He wrote the statute to protect the unscrupulous practices of his management companies and aligned industries that prey on the homeowners.
Wenonah was thrown out of her own home and had to live with friends for about a year. Everything about that case was a racket. You'll find that the law firm that represented the HOA in Wenonah's case is engaged in the same "business as usual" practices today in other subdivisions. That law firm and others that belong to the same trade group (CAI) attempt to extort legal fees by threatening homeowners with foreclosure lest the homeowner pay whatever the law firm demands. Wenonah did win ultimately after the HOA's agents attempted to abscond with all the equity in her paid-off home.
Wenonah owned her property outright. If foreclosure is going to be a remedy available to the HOA, then don't you think the HOA should at least be required to pay fair market value and to pay the excess above the amount allegedly owed back to the owner? This case was about racketeering going on in HOAs across the country. This was a blatant effort to take all the equity in the woman's home and to confer that on insiders/third parties. What recourse did all the other owners in the HOA have to stop it? What recourse did all the other owners have when the HOA (and therefore the involuntary funders of the HOA) was saddled with the obligation to pay the "investor's" lost profits (i.e., the person who purchased Wenonah's $150K home for $6K), her attorney fees, and other costs? How about personal liability for board members? How about a right of individual members to bring a malpractice action on behalf of the HOA against the law firm? You certainly won't find the Boards that hired the HOA attorney willing to do that.
As to your comment about your own bills, why don't you think those neighbors you refer to might feel the same way about the HOA? The HOA's bills aren't theirs and they have no desire to give the board a blank check to spend as the Board desires. They have little ability to control the liabilities that the HOA Board takes on. If your HOA was such a great thing then transition to a voluntary one and see how many of your neighbors agree with you. If the amenities don't cut it, then close them down. If you don't have amenities then there is no excuse for having an involuntary HOA at all. All you're doing is feeding the egos of a few board members and draining the pocketbooks of the homeowners for the benefit of the HOA management company, insurance providers, etc., etc.
You claim that your presence prevents your HOA from engaging in these tactics. Perhaps. Based upon your comments, I doubt it. The power will be abused as long as HOAs (and the management companies and HOA attorneys) have it. The issue cannot be solved by changing who's in charge. The individual owner needs to be able to protect ownership of his own property including his right to use and enjoyment, right to exclude others (particularly the HOA and/or neighbors), and right of alienation regardless of who's in charge.
Last edited by IC_deLight; 11-05-2009 at 10:01 AM..
Reason: spelling
My condo association is very close to bankruptcy. I don't know what to do! If our association does go bankrupt, all of our vendors will drop us. We will not have an attorney, management company, water, electricity, trash pick and so much more. What do you do if the city deems our property "condemned"? I will have to move. Do you know if it's better to still pay my mortgage even if I'm not living in the condo? Should I do a foreclosure? I really need advice. If anyone could help, I would truly appreciate it. I live in Washington DC.
in Texas some management companies and board members let the association go bankrupt or condemned because the land is worth so much, owners really have no control
Contrary to your representations, it isn't as easy to obtain the information as you claim. That information is held by the HOA, not the seller. The seller has little power to compel the HOA to provide the information in a timely fashion in most states. Moreover, the HOAs have zero liability as far as the loss of the home sale. The buyers can walk if they ask for but are not provided the requested information by the seller. So withholding the information is a tactic frequently used by HOA Boards and management companies to extort money or other concessions from the seller.
The seller should already own a (slightly dated) copy of the CC&Rs that they can show to serious, prospective buyers. I've been in two HOA-controlled properties and considered a third and obtaining the CC&Rs was never too difficult --
Property #1: Owner said she lost her copy and getting a new one would take 30 days, so I said I would add acceptable CC&Rs as a contingency. She found her lost copy and showed it to me within 48 hours.
Property #2: Owner was an investor and didn't have a copy of the CC&Rs, so I added acceptable CC&Rs as a contingency. I got a new copy of the CC&Rs before closing.
Property #3: (Rental) Owner's CC&Rs had 'walked off' with the previous renter. They certified the CC&Rs did not disallow holiday decorations including Christmas and Halloween, did not disallow displaying a US flag, and showed me the access policies for community ammenities plus added terms to the contract requiring them to provide me an official copy within 30 days.
Sellers rarely go to this trouble at an initial showing, but rather only when you're making serious offers.
The seller should already own a (slightly dated) copy of the CC&Rs that they can show to serious, prospective buyers. I've been in two HOA-controlled properties and considered a third and obtaining the CC&Rs was never too difficult --
Property #1: Owner said she lost her copy and getting a new one would take 30 days, so I said I would add acceptable CC&Rs as a contingency. She found her lost copy and showed it to me within 48 hours.
Property #2: Owner was an investor and didn't have a copy of the CC&Rs, so I added acceptable CC&Rs as a contingency. I got a new copy of the CC&Rs before closing.
Property #3: (Rental) Owner's CC&Rs had 'walked off' with the previous renter. They certified the CC&Rs did not disallow holiday decorations including Christmas and Halloween, did not disallow displaying a US flag, and showed me the access policies for community ammenities plus added terms to the contract requiring them to provide me an official copy within 30 days.
Sellers rarely go to this trouble at an initial showing, but rather only when you're making serious offers.
The examples you gave are worthless. What you received was copy of what the CC&Rs were at some point in history which does not mean that is what they are today. You can go to the county clerk's office to obtain actual recorded documents. Copies from any other source are suspect since the CC&Rs, bylaws, and other documents can be amended after purchase. Moreover, the HOA industry has been successful at providing for zero liability or very limited liability when the HOA (actually usually the management company) provides you with false or incomplete information - or tries to shakedown an owners who is trying to get a copy of the subdivision information. The CCRs are not a "warranty card" as to the property rights you have today. Whatever you purchase today and whatever rights you think you have can be wiped out without compensation by amendments to the CCRs, bylaws, etc.
The examples you gave are worthless. What you received was copy of what the CC&Rs were at some point in history which does not mean that is what they are today.
Then you did not read carefully. The examples do not show me obtaining old / outdated copies of the CC&Rs.
> "#2... got a new copy of the CC&Rs before closing."
That's a 'new copy' the week before closing, hardly dated or worthless.
> "#3 - They certified the CC&Rs did not disallow holiday decorations
> including Christmas and Halloween, did not disallow displaying a US flag,
> and showed me the access policies for community ammenities plus added
> terms to the contract requiring them to provide me an official copy within
> 30 days."
That's a certification on the very day I rented, hardly dated or worthless.
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Whatever you purchase today and whatever rights you think you have
No, they're rights I know I have, see above.
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The CCRs are not a "warranty card" as to the property rights you have today... can be wiped out without compensation by amendments to the CCRs, bylaws, etc.
You mean, an HOA document is not stale and unchanging, but rather can be updated by a democratic vote of its members or elected representatives?
That's the very same concept behind our constitution--I have a right to free speech and to bear arms--but there's no guarantee next year I won't if 75% of Americans change their mind.
If most Americans / HOA members have valued a right for a long time, they probably will next year, too. Especially if we're not 'passive observers' and speak-up and vote when we disagree. The most annoying group are the ones who never show up at meetings and never vote, yet complain after the fact when they don't like how they've being governed.
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