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The biggest problem that chronically dateless men have is that they refuse to listen to women who try to tell them what they are doing wrong. Instead, they prefer the rather laughable counsel of other chronically dateless men about the mechanics of going after women who are drunk, devoid of any semblance of self-respect, or both. Nevertheless, as much as I am sure my advice will fall on deaf ears, I'll still go ahead and point out a couple of things.
There is a good reason to drop the "nice guy" persona -- and that's because it's fake. The linked article, and some of the comments made here demonstrate yet again that so-called "nice guys" are anything but nice; they are simultaneously manipulative and hugely hypocritical in assigning blame when their scam fails. Think about it. A "nice guy" pretends to be a woman's friend, often targeting one that he perceives as emotionally vulnerable (whether it's due to a bad relationship or her mother dying of cancer -- whatever); in reality, however, he hopes -- nay, expects -- sexual compensation for his fake empathy. When that technique fails, the "nice guy" rails against the woman for actually having the gall to believe he really wanted to be her friend and to lend her a sympathetic ear, as opposed to merely going through the motions in order to get into her pants. He expects women to just share his notion that no man in his right mind would actually be friendly to a broad without an ulterior motive, and therefore to understand that a man's friendliness isn't real friendliness, but merely a signal of his desire to mate.
I am especially appalled -- and I am sure most other women are too -- by the suggestion that listening to a woman's problems entitles a man to a romantic relationship or at least sex. Using difficulties that a person is going through and pulling her emotional strings in order to manipulate her into a relationship shows a shockingly dismissive attitude towards her, which, as I've pointed out before, is anything but "nice".
As far as lavish dinners and so forth and so on: Apart from the fact that this is totally inconsistent with the oft-repeated complaint that women cynically hunt rich and generous dudes, this yet again demonstrates that women aren't vending machines. Fine dining and expensive gifts in the courtship phase are indeed a turn-off. Why? Because they create a sense of obligation that makes a woman feel uncomfortable. And indeed, that's the whole idea behind such expenditures, isn't it? The thinking behind it isn't generosity, but something along the lines of "If I spend $300 on dinner, she'll pretty much have to sleep with me." Most people who have the minimal mental capacity to know when they are being manipulated, detest manipulation and at no point more so than when someone is trying to guilt-trip them into having sex.
As for availability and being overly accommodating, here is how it goes: If I am attracted to a man and find him intellectually and emotionally appealing, the fact that he has a flexible schedule is a huge plus. If I find a man unattractive, emotionally stunted and intellectually incurious, his attentions are an annoyance, and I really wish he'd lead a busier life.
The solution to the "nice guy" dilemma isn't switching one fake persona for another. Contrary to popular belief, women aren't attracted to insults and abuse any more than to manipulation. Rather, the solution is to be a normal, reasonable, self-respecting adult with realistic expectations, and to approach women as human beings, not puzzles to be "figured out".
nah, this is a cop-out. being nice definitely isn't always a persona, and there are a lot of geniunely nice guys out there who get poor results with women.
exactly.. it's ironic that the same guys who are the kiss a$$e$ are the very ones she is talking about who are fake..
Same here. I want a nice guy; I don't want an eager-to-please pushover.
That is a much better and more honest way to put it... "push overs" If all this propaganda was against guys being 'push overs' it would all make a lot more sense.
The guys who read these articles like how-to manuals are typically the ones who have been searching for the magic formula all their lives. They think there is this one-size-fits-all method to scoring with women.
In short time they are going on jealous tirades, childish tantrums, and they self destruct without the aid of a life coach or some the flawed wisdom of Maxim magazine advice.
I always wince a little when I see articles about "nice guys" and how they finish last, or even the well intentioned articles that are written with the best of intentions. Often what happens is, the guy reading it as a tutorial will take it to extremes. Sort of like telling someone looking for diet or healthy food suggestions that grapefruits are good for you. If they're inclined to follow fad diets they eat 12 grapefruits a day while ignoring the other essential food groups. Inevitiably they end up feeling like crap and wonder why eating grapefruit didn't work out.
Of course it's no different for women who think that reading some article in Cosmo is going to bless them with the keys to the kingdom in regard to "What Men Want" or "How to Control Him". The fact that thesearticles and magazines sell so well speaks volumes for just how clueless men and women can be in regard to the opposite sex.
In other words, it's THE STUPID MEDIA ..basically i agree completely
i don't think it is that a guy who reads these things is looking for a 'one size fits all' solution.. even though you are dead right about that is what's being offered.. IMO it's just low self esteem. --Guys looking towards magazines and women's advice on 'how to have success with women' it's all so pathetic and stupid..It just leads them further into their own low self image.. Duh!
Wow. I guess there is a real divide between what women and men think the definition of "nice guy" is.
DH is the nicest guy ever, not an ounce of badness in his body. But he is also reasonably handsome, and very assertive. You can be assertive in pursing a woman without being a prick. So he has a very successful dating history. He has never been turned down for a date. And he never spends a crapload of money - he just makes sure that I have a great time and acts considerate/gentlemanly. Acting considerate does not equate to being a boring turd! And being "bad" does not equal being interesting!
Now a lot of guys think they are "nice guys", but they are just a&&holes and failures. I know plenty of these, and I have rejected them all. Let me tell you what is wrong with the "fake nice guys." First of all, they want the same things that any guy wants - a girlfriend, companionship, and some sex is good too. But they don't bother to work at it. Usually they are kinda unfit and have no social skills. They are too afraid of being rejected so they never make a move in time before some other guy (labeled, the "bad boy") steps in. When they do make a move to confess their love, they do it at the worst possible time, in the worst possible manner. It takes MORE effort to develop these qualities of a REAL MAN... It is WAYYYY easier to be a pushover and to do the girl's homework, to buy gifts, listen to her problems, to put her on a pedastal and drool. Let me tell you a secret. Real women do not want a boy who drools at her like a dog. They want somebody who treats her as a real person, who can joke around and make her feel comfortable, who isn't trying to impress her so she will go to bed with him. That is effing CREEPY and GROSS. Start working on your fitness, work on your social skills. Don't be a "bad boy"... that will definitely get you NOTHING GOOD.
So don't take the easy way out!!! Be a real man. I'm so sick of people saying that "nice guys finish last" because it is so not true. It is the ultimate insult to women, as if our heads are so far up our a&&es we don't know what is good for us? PUL-LEASE... go die in a fire!
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My favorite post from a female on this crap.. You made the distinction very nicely. Naturally a 'real man' is more than just good social skills and body but your point comes across. It's also a real slap in the face to genuine nice men-- men who paint houses or do yardwork or other favors for a woman who's a friend because they ARE a good decent friend. You are right about 'nice guy' definitions that unfortunately lumps real decent nice guys in with 'player' nice guys.
My favorite post from a female on this crap.. You made the distinction very nicely. Naturally a 'real man' is more than just good social skills and body but your point comes across. It's also a real slap in the face to genuine nice men-- men who paint houses or do yardwork or other favors for a woman who's a friend because they ARE a good decent friend. You are right about 'nice guy' definitions that unfortunately lumps real decent nice guys in with 'player' nice guys.
I've always believed that if a guy tells women what a nice guy he is, turn and run. He is a player. A really nice guy never has to say so...he will show it to you in how he acts.
Women are NOT all alike! Yes, some of us prefer nice guys, and some don't. I suppose some men respond well to nice women, and some don't. So, you might as well just be yourself; that way you'll end up with someone who really likes you, and you won't have to spend your life pretending to be someone else.
My favorite post from a female on this crap.. You made the distinction very nicely. Naturally a 'real man' is more than just good social skills and body but your point comes across. It's also a real slap in the face to genuine nice men-- men who paint houses or do yard work or other favors for a woman who's a friend because they ARE a good decent friend. You are right about 'nice guy' definitions that unfortunately lumps real decent nice guys in with 'player' nice guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsRiss7383
I've always believed that if a guy tells women what a nice guy he is, turn and run. He is a player. A really nice guy never has to say so...he will show it to you in how he acts.
Thanks for a little balance. Redisca's post would make a nice summary in court and probably win the day with a judiciary that is largely out of step with the country. However, she is from NYC and it is likely that there are many actors there. This is in sharp contrast with most other places.
What is important to note is that while there are many genuine decent men who "will show it to you in how he acts", there are very few women who are looking for these traits before marriage. If anything, they consider them to be contrary to their immediate needs and interests. Unfortunately, they are the very things that are important for making a marriage successful in the long run.
I was reflecting on that today as I involved in the completion and take down of a group's tournament. Those who contributed the most, were aside from me, in what I consider to be long term successful relationships. The other types tended to avoid providing any help, even though it only took a few minutes.
Such tendencies tend to wear on any marriage. Truly nice people are net contributors to society, but this is seldom recognized, nor appreciated when it comes to dating. The worst among us, consider it all to just be fake and this says a lot about why marriage is now such a poor bet.
More and more men are waking up to the nice guy scam. After so many "but I just don't see you that way"'s, the realization comes that the window of opportunity is becoming ever smaller before the inevitable (often permanent) banishment into the friend zone.
Um...I have rarely met any really good-looking, smart, successful 'nice guys.'
I think maybe a lot of 'nice' guys are nice because they have to be in order to compensate for what they're lacking.
Then they think they get dissed for 'being nice.'
Wrong. The few 'nice guys' I know who are intelligent, charming, and successful get plenty of dates.
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You made the distinction very nicely. Naturally a 'real man' is more than just good social skills and body but your point comes across. It's also a real slap in the face to genuine nice men-- men who paint houses or do yardwork or other favors for a woman who's a friend because they ARE a good decent friend. You are right about 'nice guy' definitions that unfortunately lumps real decent nice guys in with 'player' nice guys.
