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Old 09-13-2010, 11:28 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
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"Lower the bar, and people will trip over it."

In my view a lot of marriages fail because the bar was too high in the first place.
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Old 09-13-2010, 11:30 AM
 
Location: The Hall of Justice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Strange notion that a couple would be more prone to breakup if they don't make those vows. I wonder if there are statistics on the breakup rates of couples who got married with and without such vows, and even couples who never got married at all
I've read that couples who live together before marrying have a higher divorce rate than those who don't. But I don't know how that compares to the breakup rate of engaged couples (i.e., intending to marry but not living together). I don't think breakup rates among the non-married are as frequently studied, but it would be nice to see how they compare.
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Old 09-13-2010, 11:34 AM
 
3,059 posts, read 8,244,374 times
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Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
I am not a kid that needs motivation. I am a grown-up, I do things when I feel like doing them or when I have to do them because of laws etc., but not because I tell myself I have to do them.
Actually Neuling doing things when you "feel like it" or because you are forced to by laws doesn't sound grown-up at all. It sounds exactly like a kid.
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Old 09-13-2010, 11:50 AM
 
Location: The Hall of Justice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
"Lower the bar, and people will trip over it."

In my view a lot of marriages fail because the bar was too high in the first place.
Do you believe that lowering the bar will improve things somehow, or do you simply believe that marriage is generally doomed?
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Old 09-13-2010, 11:52 AM
 
Location: Northern Virginia
4,489 posts, read 10,898,650 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
"Lower the bar, and people will trip over it."

In my view a lot of marriages fail because the bar was too high in the first place.
"I will stay beside you no matter what" is too high? What's the point of marriage, then? A nice time filler until you find something better?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
I am not a kid that needs motivation. I am a grown-up, I do things when I feel like doing them or when I have to do them because of laws etc., but not because I tell myself I have to do them.
I actually teach high schoolers and lead GED classes for working adults and immigrants. These aren't little kids. These are people who realize they will be better for working through their struggles. They are incredibly self-motivated (especially my GED adults, not so much the high school kids) and WANT to pass their exams. My experiences are anecdotal at best, but simply taking negativity out of the classroom improves over all success. It's not rocket science. When you tell yourself something is too hard, you've already given up on some level.
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Old 09-14-2010, 07:11 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
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Originally Posted by sunshineleith View Post
Actually Neuling doing things when you "feel like it" or because you are forced to by laws doesn't sound grown-up at all. It sounds exactly like a kid.
I don't share that opinion. I don't believe in doing things just so they are done, even if - in my opinion - they should not be done. Unlike a kid I am a grown-up and can pretty much decide what I do and don't do. And I trust my decisions on that much more than other people's.
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Old 09-14-2010, 07:16 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
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Originally Posted by JustJulia View Post
Do you believe that lowering the bar will improve things somehow, or do you simply believe that marriage is generally doomed?
I don't think marriage is doomed, but I think its traditional version is a bit outdated.
I don't think a couple who make vows without the eternal or death part can last just as long as those who get married the old-fashioned way. I think they stay together because they really both want to, not because they feel like they have to stay together if they don't want to break some promise made years or decades ago.
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Old 09-14-2010, 07:23 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,915 posts, read 24,563,776 times
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Originally Posted by CaliTerp07 View Post
"I will stay beside you no matter what" is too high? What's the point of marriage, then? A nice time filler until you find something better?
Yes, in my view it is a crazy thing to promise. It glosses over so many things that can happen and that are beyond one's will or power.
Do you think couples living together without being married consider themselves nice time fillers? Did your parents vow to love you till one of you dies? No, they just do.



Quote:
I actually teach high schoolers and lead GED classes for working adults and immigrants. These aren't little kids. These are people who realize they will be better for working through their struggles. They are incredibly self-motivated (especially my GED adults, not so much the high school kids) and WANT to pass their exams. My experiences are anecdotal at best, but simply taking negativity out of the classroom improves over all success. It's not rocket science. When you tell yourself something is too hard, you've already given up on some level.
There is no negativity in not vowing to stay together till either one dies. Nor does the omission of such a vow mean the couple thinks they will not stay together till death.
Your analogy would mean students vow to have A's only. That would also be a foolish thing to do as there are so many things that can prevent them from achieving that goal, no matter how hard they try. It is enough motivation if they tell themselves that they want to get as many A's as possible.
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Old 09-14-2010, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Northern Virginia
4,489 posts, read 10,898,650 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Yes, in my view it is a crazy thing to promise. It glosses over so many things that can happen and that are beyond one's will or power.
Do you think couples living together without being married consider themselves nice time fillers? Did your parents vow to love you till one of you dies? No, they just do.
Beyond one's will or power? It's not beyond my will to stay with my husband forever. It's a choice I made, and I will do it come hell or high water.

If couples want to live together without being married, that's totally fine--but to me, that says they don't want to firmly commit to "forever". In that essence, yes--it's a time filler until something comes along that makes the relationship no longer beneficial to one party.

Yes, my parents promised to love me. My mom used to say that to me every single night when she tucked me in to bed--"I will love you forever". When I was baptized in the church, my parents promised to raise me to know Jesus--the ultimate in Christian love.

Quote:
There is no negativity in not vowing to stay together till either one dies. Nor does the omission of such a vow mean the couple thinks they will not stay together till death.
Saying "I will love you until I don't feel like it anymore" is pretty negative. "I promise to be with you until my love fades away" is just down right depressing, imo. The omission of vows doesn't say much, it's what's in the people's hearts--but if they go to such lengths to think out vows besides "I will be with you forever, no matter what", that says to me "I'm already looking for an escape clause because I don't think this is going to last."

Quote:
Your analogy would mean students vow to have A's only. That would also be a foolish thing to do as there are so many things that can prevent them from achieving that goal, no matter how hard they try. It is enough motivation if they tell themselves that they want to get as many A's as possible.
I actually make my high school kids sign forms at the beginning of the year saying they understand that they are capable of getting A's. I tell them that I am willing to spend as much time as necessary to work with them on extra problems, that I will set them up with free tutors, and that there is no reason why they shouldn't understand all of the material by the end of the year. It's not foolish. If that kid wants an A and believes they can get an A, they will find a way to get an A. Does everyone get 100% on everything? Of course not. But most of that is a personal choice. Barring extenuating circumstances like getting incredibly sick and missing a month of school (which we work around--I have personally dropped off assignments with students), an A is not out of reach for anyone who wants it.
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Old 09-14-2010, 10:32 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,915 posts, read 24,563,776 times
Reputation: 9708
My parents never said anything like that to me, they just loved me. No needs for words, they knew I don't like that anyway.

Making a vow of the kind you mentioned would indeed be negative, that is why I would not make any reference to the duration whatsoever.

Frankly, if someone needs so much extr help, time etc. to finally get an A, those who get an A easily should get something else if marks are to have any meaning.
And there is the difference that a marriage involves two people, the success of a marriage does not depend on one motivation of one person like with a student.

Let's face it, if nature had not given us the illusion of being in love, most people would never get married in the first place.
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