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Old 09-22-2010, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Corydon, IN
3,688 posts, read 4,999,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunwyn View Post
Well, perhaps social patterns within your culture, which may be the mainstream. That may be why much of the rhetoric here is so odd to me. Perhaps I'm just not in touch with mainstream America, etc.

Careful, you'll drown in the rain with your nose in the air like that!
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:20 PM
 
22,768 posts, read 30,623,304 times
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i think it is important to distinguish between women who "have it all" by the virtue of their own hard work and god-given traits, and the women who complain that they "can't have it all" because they can't hack it and somebody else didn't make it happen for them. my apologies if that wasn't clear.
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:27 PM
 
19,045 posts, read 25,126,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban Sasquatch View Post
Try asking 2Mares -- she seemed to understand it just fine, so I don't think it was my "mushy" example or any of my reasoning and I suspect you're just being purposely obtuse. In fact, I'd say your responses were actually a pretty good example of the very thing of which I was speaking.
Well, from where I sit you have a bone to pick with anyone that doesn't agree with you. I'm not 2mares. I reconcile reality with my experience, not hers. . I will not always view the world, posts, etc as she does, you do, or whoever.
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:37 PM
 
19,045 posts, read 25,126,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban Sasquatch View Post
Careful, you'll drown in the rain with your nose in the air like that!
Jumping the gun...again, I see. Geesh. As I've mentioned in the past, before I went to college I lived outside for a good 8 years. I lived off the grid and was simply not exposed to mainstream culture, people, etc. My husband and friends, save one, are of the same cloth (no TV, pop top 40 culture, etc). I am simply recognizing that I might not be in touch because you are the one that keeps telling me how outlandish it is that me and my ilk do not share your grievances. That, or the internet is a meeting ground for the disgruntled. One or the other I figure.
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:38 PM
 
Location: NYC
2,223 posts, read 5,335,984 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia View Post
I saw a lament, definitely--we are talking about the OP, right?



My emphasis in red. These all sound like complaints to me about female feelings of oppression or restriction: no other purpose, who the hell wants to, I thought we got past this.

I just haven't gotten into it because I don't understand the pot analogy in the first place.
I am the OP. I shared the bolded quote from Mad Men, a program set in 1965. The person making the statement was an early feminist, who made the statement to another woman who is struggling with what her role should be, given the changing dynamics of those times. As a junior exec in a male-dominated field, she wants to be the "soup" but society keeps telling her to be the "pot" ... that her role is to be the woman behind the man and nothing else.

My take on the soup/pot analogy is that up until that point, women served in an auxiliary role to men. They were the pot that held the soup (the man) together. Their entire existence was directed toward husbands and children. But, as times changed, women began wanting something for themselves.

Please don't leap to conclusions about me by this statement. And, if you have a specific question, I am happy to answer it. I had surgery today so I'm home with my leg up .

I am not a feminist but I was raised by a man who encouraged me to be able to support myself, which was the direct result of him having a father with problems supporting the family, and a mother who struggled as a result. When I was about 25, my dad told me that I might never get married. I believe he based his opinion on the quality of available men -- not about my lack of feminine characteristics or attractiveness. My dad felt that as long as I was educated, I wouldn't have to rely on a man, who might be unreliable.

If you've ever heard the story, "The Ditchdiggers Daughters," you'll have an idea of my dad's mindset. His philosophies were very much like the dad in that story.

ADDED: Recap of Mad Men Episode. Maybe if you watch, the intent of my original message will be clearer.

Last edited by queensgrl; 09-22-2010 at 01:21 PM.. Reason: clarity
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Corydon, IN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares View Post
As a woman I have heard, from childhood to present, men belittling boys and men by insinuating their actions are feminine. I have been and am guilty of this myself. But I do believe it is a learned behavior. I have witnessed men chastising women for giving into boys insecurities and weaknesses. Most women, as mothers and nurturers, will comfort and coddle little boys, especially if there is no man around to “correct†us.

I think women do do this to themselves mostly in the teenage and early adult years, but not as extreme as men. By our 30's we really dont have as rigid role to fit into or we just dont care.

By our 30's, neither do we, nor are our roles quite so rigid as they once were, with the exception and social expectations of the breadwinner role, for better or worse, right or wrong.

As teenagers, the suggestion of "gay" draws indignation; in older, more confident men it draws snickers and even horseplay among us, is a badge of cameraderie rather than insult.

As for the insinuation toward male children that a particular behaviour is feminine in nature -- I've seen extreme cases and I've seen instances where it's not the case at all. Some of that may be due to times changing but I wonder just how much, versus just how much was blown way out of proportion, a kind of social caricature, if you will. I believe much of the rhetoric about women being "repressed" by men is the same sort of caricature, often held up as a slogan, a mascot for a cause -- but how much of it is actually true?

I know I've heard/read countless times where (a media-based example, but one of relatively wide dissemination) June Cleaver was held up as the "typical woman" by indignant folks -- "expected to be perfect, in her pearls and high heels and coiffure while tending house", yet nothing could really be further from the truth. That's just an example, and a SILLY example at that, of how people don't even pay attention to whatever the hell they're saying at the time, they just pick an image and go with it. Utterly silly, yet I've heard it held up like a battle flag so many times it's just ridiculous! "You can't make ME some June Cleaver!" *spoken with smarmy, irritated voice*

When it comes to a lot of these "differences" between men and women I dare say both sides are perpetuating a lot of nonsense. Men and women are a lot more ALIKE than they are different, nearly every difference of any import being physical rather than emotional or academic. Nevertheless there are certain psychological differences, and I note people on both sides are happy, even EAGER to promote those differences so long as they're advantageous, and deny them utterly when they're detrimental.

Bottom line: There's just no way in Heaven or Hell or on the cool, green hills of Earth that men or women ALONE are responsible for all the ills perpetuated, one side blameless, the other side being "the one who REALLY started it!"
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Corydon, IN
3,688 posts, read 4,999,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunwyn View Post
Well, from where I sit you have a bone to pick with anyone that doesn't agree with you. I'm not 2mares. I reconcile reality with my experience, not hers. . I will not always view the world, posts, etc as she does, you do, or whoever.

Hey, YOU'RE the one who couldn't understand what I was talking about but felt qualified to contend!
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:49 PM
 
6,536 posts, read 7,256,054 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djuna View Post
The thread is about women's roles, not your distaste for the fact women are ALLOWED to choose roles now. So women want what is best for themselves...boo hoo that you don't like it.
Relax. I left it neutral to prevent the drama you are bringing but I guess it didn't work. I commented without really specifying on a gender until you brought it up. So women are ALLOWED to chose whatever benefits them (cherry picking). So you do agree with my comment then .

Quote:
Yea, because if your wife is going to bearing the children, keeping a house, and working outside the home, you need to become her help mate. Time to get with the program
Braunwyn,
Well said. Even if there are no children in the picture. It's all about team work like you express. Where both would be as involved in expenses, house chores, and so on.

Quote:
If a guy wants a woman to stay home, cook and clean...he can hire one.
Yes, if that is all a man expects from a woman then, yes, I agree with you . But also, if a girl wants a guy to pay for her meals and entertainment, do chivalrous acts, etc. She can call her dad.
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:49 PM
 
Location: The Hall of Justice
25,901 posts, read 42,569,287 times
Reputation: 42767
Quote:
Originally Posted by queensgrl View Post
I am the OP. I shared the bolded quote from Mad Men, a program set in 1965. The person making the statement was an early feminist, who made the statement to another woman who is struggling with what her role should be, given the changing dynamics of those times. As a junior exec in a male-dominated field, she wants to be the "soup" but society keeps telling her to be the "pot" ... that her role is to be the woman behind the man and nothing else.

My take on the soup/pot analogy is that up until that point, women served in an auxiliary role to men. They were the pot that held the soup (the man) together. Their entire existence was directed toward husbands and children. But, as times changed, women began wanting something for themselves.
Okay. I haven't seen that show but have heard good things. I like John Hamm.

I think the soup analogy is very sloppy (men are like vegetable soup? really??), but I understand that you did not write it. You did, however, state that you thought we were "past that."

Quote:
Originally Posted by queensgrl View Post
Please don't leap to conclusions about me by this statement. And, if you have a specific question, I am happy to answer it. I had surgery today so I'm home with my leg up .
Oh, I'm not leaping to conclusions. I know you didn't write it. I'm not sure why you'd point to something that someone could have said sixty years ago as a contemporary statement. We have moved past those days, although I doubt they were quite as oppressive as that statement made them seem. Staying at home with the kids was a luxury that poorer families could not afford; women have always worked, and children used to, too. Women went to college and became doctors and pilots and government officials. Sure, these things weren't common or easy, but to say that women were nothing--and could be nothing--but "pots" is untrue and unfair to women of times past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by queensgrl View Post
I am not a feminist
I admit that I always wonder about women who say this. I understand that the word means different things to different people, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by queensgrl View Post
but I was raised by a man who encouraged me to be able to support myself, which was the direct result of him having a father with problems supporting the family, and a mother who struggled as a result. When I was about 25, my dad told me that I might never get married. I believe he based his opinion on the quality of available men -- not about my lack of feminine characteristics or attractiveness. My dad felt that as long as I was educated, I wouldn't have to rely on a man, who might be unreliable.
Education, career, self-reliance ... are you sure you're not a feminist?

Last edited by JustJulia; 09-22-2010 at 12:53 PM.. Reason: No, I did NOT deliberately say, "I's not sure"!
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Corydon, IN
3,688 posts, read 4,999,925 times
Reputation: 7588
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunwyn View Post
Well, from where I sit you have a bone to pick with anyone that doesn't agree with you. I'm not 2mares. I reconcile reality with my experience, not hers. . I will not always view the world, posts, etc as she does, you do, or whoever.

For the record, I don't have a bone to pick with anyone who disagrees with me. I'd suggest all but a few within these forums or real life would contend that.

I DO have a bone of contention for people who feign in order to hide behind it, who pretend to understand half a sentence while discarding the other half, as though it's all conveniently separate, neither amalgam nor pieces of a larger puzzle.

It's utterly selective and disengenuous.
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