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OK, I see what you're saying. You're right. That's something a young girl should've learned at home. If she's hearing for the first time from a stranger, that's probably not a good thing. Unfortunately, I think there are a lot of households where girls are being told the wrong things. A lot of that falls under the umbrella of "ladylike" behavior, such as "it's not ladylike to offer your opinion unless asked." In other words, stay there and keep quiet while the men talk.
Okay, great. So I guess what I am wondering is, did some of these females apply this advice in a way that worked against them because they did not have the appropriate modeling at home from both male and female adults?
I say this because I have learned to stop giving "common sense" advice to people IRL when I realized that I was applying "common sense" advice I heard as an adult in ways that worked against me and my family. For the most part, I was in defensive and survival mode because of my upbringing so I tended to interpret advice different than what was intended. I hope I am not making this too personal. But rather I hope I am giving a different perspective.
In fact, the main reason why I realized this was because I met more quality people and read more. I was able to see good advice applied in real life. Do these kind of women have access to quality people?
First of all, I don't attribute these to feminists. But let's assume they did originate with them. Do these things turn men off? I know from your previous posts where you talked about the men that you've dated that you think they do turn them off.
<snip>
That wasn't the question. Your very own question was: Can you gives some examples of bad advice feminists have given women about what attracts men? NOT what are things that turn off men?
The things on my list do not attract men, but that does not mean "they turn men off." I never said that they do turn men off; that is false.
In the initial stages of attracting a man, men are indifferent to the things on my list, not repelled by them.
(The rest of your post isn't relevant to mine so I edited it out, no offense.)
I don't know Onglet -- I've only seen people who criticize feminists claim that this is advice that feminists give women. The closest I've seen actual feminists claim is that women shouldn't pretend to be stupid or uneducated, or reflexively agree with everything a guy says so that he, godforbid, won't feel emasculated if your opinion on something happens to differ or if you have something besides blanket assent to add to the conversation. That's not at all the same as supposedly advising women to go into great detail about their professional qualifications or purposefully picking fights in order to demonstrate superiority. The way I understand it, you prove to be an intellectual equal by being actively engaged in conversation, instead of just nodding at everything with occasional comments like: "You can see the Great Wall of China from space? Really?? Wow, I've never heard that before! You know so much! It's like, you are the smartest person on the planet!" From what I can tell, most men don't actually like women who behave this way. And those who do -- well, they are either total idiots or have egos inflated to comical proportions. Or both. And who wants them, anyway?
I listed advice that I myself have been given numerous times.
As for the rest of your post, I did not say anything about whether or not to have an opinion, nor about being an intellectual equal, nor about sitting there nodding in agreement instead of engaging in conversation. You took my post in that direction, I did not.
That wasn't the question. Your very own question was: Can you gives some examples of bad advice feminists have given women about what attracts men? NOT what are things that turn off men?
The things on my list do not attract men, but that does not mean "they turn men off." I never said that they do turn men off; that is false.
In the initial stages of attracting a man, men are indifferent to the things on my list, not repelled by them.
(The rest of your post isn't relevant to mine so I edited it out, no offense.)
OK then, going back to your original post, where did you ever hear that those things attract men? I've never, EVER heard anyone say those things. Once again, I think this is just the anti-feminist crowd mis-characterizing something they heard. What started out as "don't be afraid to be talk about your career or challenge what he says" turned into "talk about your career and challenge what he says and men will find you more attractive." I've never heard that. But it's a common practice among that crowd, taking something they heard and deliberately morphing it into something else. These are the same people who took "treat your wife like an equal partner in all major household decisions" and reinterpreted is as "get her permission first."
But let's look at those examples you gave and see if they could in fact be used to attract a man.
1. Discussion of career accomplishments - Many men are afraid of ending up with a gold digger. So if a woman talks about what she's accomplished and demonstrates that she's not looking for a man to support her, that could potentially make the man feel as though there's less risk of her using him. If you're a man who's predisposed to think all women are users and that you have to be on the defensive, then a woman who can successfully demonstrate that she's less likely to use you may seem more attractive to you. Such a woman will tend to stand out more.
2. Discussion of college degrees and/or other education matters - This tells the man she's no airhead. Suppose that's all he's met at the bar. Then he may find the educated woman to be a breath of fresh air and, as I showed with #1, more attractive.
3. Dressing is such a manner that says you don't want to "try too hard" - work type clothing - I addressed this in my previous post when I talked about confidence and how attractive that can be to a man. If a man sees a woman dressing like a ****, he's going to think less of her. On the other hand, if she comes across as not trying so hard, it implies she has self-confidence which makes her more attractive in his eyes.
4. Proving you are an intellectual equal by challenging a lot of what he says in conversation - Guys talk about how they like a challenge. You'll often hear this whenever the topic of being the pursuer comes up. If a woman makes it too easy to be caught, then the man will lose interest, or so the argument goes. By the same token, if a woman challenges a man in conversation, he may be turned on by that because he sees it as a game, much like dating in general can seem.
Last edited by DennyCrane; 12-10-2010 at 02:31 PM..
OK then, going back to your original post, where did you ever hear that those things attract men? I've never, EVER heard anyone say those things. Once again, I think this is just the anti-feminist crowd mis-characterizing something they heard. What started out as "don't be afraid to be talk about your career or challenge what he says" turned into "talk about your career and challenge what he says and men will find you more attractive." I've never heard that. But it's a common practice among that crowd, taking something they heard and deliberately morphing it into something else. These are the same people who took "treat your wife like an equal partner in all major household decisions" to "get her permission first."
I have heard these things from a variety of real-life women in my late twenties and then again in my late 30s.
And well of course you haven't heard what I have heard, you are not a woman! You have not sought advice as a woman from a woman. Nor have you heard unsolicited advice from fellow women while out to dinner or cocktails or what have you. You are a man. Why do you think what you have personally heard would apply?
OK then, going back to your original post, where did you ever hear that those things attract men? I've never, EVER heard anyone say those things. Once again, I think this is just the anti-feminist crowd mis-characterizing something they heard. What started out as "don't be afraid to be talk about your career or challenge what he says" turned into "talk about your career and challenge what he says and men will find you more attractive." I've never heard that. But it's a common practice among that crowd, taking something they heard and deliberately morphing it into something else. These are the same people who took "treat your wife like an equal partner in all major household decisions" and reinterpreted is as "get her permission first."
But let's look at those examples you gave and see if they could in fact be used to attract a man.
1. Discussion of career accomplishments - Many men are afraid of ending up with a gold digger. So if a woman talks about what she's accomplished and demonstrates that she's not looking for a man to support her, that could potentially make the man feel as though there's less risk of her using him. If you're a man who's predisposed to think all women are users and that you have to be on the defensive, then a woman who can successfully demonstrate that she's less likely to use you may seem more attractive to you. Such a woman will tend to stand out more. 2. Discussion of college degrees and/or other education matters - This tells the man she's no airhead. Suppose that's all he's met at the bar. Then he may find the educated woman to be a breath of fresh air and, as I showed with #1, more attractive.
3. Dressing is such a manner that says you don't want to "try too hard" - work type clothing - I addressed this in my previous post when I talked about confidence and how attractive that can be to a man. If a man sees a woman dressing like a ****, he's going to think less of her. On the other hand, if she comes across as not trying so hard, it implies she has self-confidence which makes her more attractive in his eyes.
4. Proving you are an intellectual equal by challenging a lot of what he says in conversation - Guys talk about how they like a challenge. You'll often hear this whenever the topic of being the pursuer comes up. If a woman makes it too easy to be caught, then the man will lose interest, or so the argument goes. By the same token, if a woman challenges a man in conversation, he may be turned on by that because he sees it as a game, much like dating in general can seem.
Actually I will touch up on those points in bold:
To me, that is not a turn on to see a woman is too independant. It makes me think that a woman can only be more of a *****. I find in a world or a website where more women have good careers or they appear to on dating sites. They could be lies, but just assume they aren't for a minute.
Wouldnt any guy feel inferior? I mean personally when I see a woman as being unemployed or working a part time job, I consider it more a turn on. It means she like me is not in a hurry to get ahead and is taking it slow like people should. I don't care if a girl lives with her parents. I mean I think its kinda nice if you want my opinion and more of a chance she will even give me the time of day to begin with. A woman might be a cold hearted snake too if she tries to prove shes a "successful woman". They aren't and when they want kids, they will be in for a rude awakening. There won't be anyone to take care of them and they'll be forced to move in with their parents.
The feminists of the world have ruined society imo.
I am not the perfect alpha male or anything, but please leave sound economical decisions to many men. I just know as a man, I am a responsible spender especially since I found my true self.
In summary, women tend to be ******* who cling to the extremely independant life. Why cant black women find decent men?
Thats a whole other topic, but a high ratio of black women have fatherless kids and are doing all the work. White women also have fell into this category too, but black women do seem to be better at it. It doesn't make it right though. No woman should have to slave at her job, come home and study for school + attend to children. She had to have needed someone at a time.
To me, that is not a turn on to see a woman is too independant. It makes me think that a woman can only be more of a *****. I find in a world or a website where more women have good careers or they appear to on dating sites. They could be lies, but just assume they aren't for a minute.
Wouldnt any guy feel inferior? I mean personally when I see a woman as being unemployed or working a part time job, I consider it more a turn on. It means she like me is not in a hurry to get ahead and is taking it slow like people should. I don't care if a girl lives with her parents. I mean I think its kinda nice if you want my opinion and more of a chance she will even give me the time of day to begin with. A woman might be a cold hearted snake too if she tries to prove shes a "successful woman". They aren't and when they want kids, they will be in for a rude awakening. There won't be anyone to take care of them and they'll be forced to move in with their parents.
The feminists of the world have ruined society imo.
I am not the perfect alpha male or anything, but please leave sound economical decisions to many men. I just know as a man, I am a responsible spender especially since I found my true self.
In summary, women tend to be ******* who cling to the extremely independant life. Why cant black women find decent men?
Thats a whole other topic, but a high ratio of black women have fatherless kids and are doing all the work. White women also have fell into this category too, but black women do seem to be better at it. It doesn't make it right though. No woman should have to slave at her job, come home and study for school + attend to children. She had to have needed someone at a time.
It isn't a turn on for you to see an independent woman because you are stuck in some teenage mentality and appear to be a chronic underachiever. Of course an independent career woman would turn you off, you are so far below her in so many ways.
Real men do not feel inferior to a woman who has a career or makes good money and is confident enough to negotiate a place in the world for herself. Pathetic losers will always feel inferior, to both men and women.
A successful career driven woman is very sexy IMO. A woman who's that but also a stuck up "Im better then you" attitude about it is a major turn off. Half the time, career driven woman get that mentality or so i've experienced. Their usually the ones I see driving around my town the large SUV's with chrome spinning rims along with pampered, spoiled kids in the back while mommy puts on a fresh layer of makeup at the intersection. Gag me
Meh, ultimately a career is about money. Having money is a good thing. I'd much rather have my job with all the annoying stuff I deal with than have to work as a waitress (no offense to waitresses, I know hard you work). Job satisfaction also helps people enjoy their life a bit more, but when it comes down to it most people will say there are aspects of their job they hate.
I have heard these things from a variety of real-life women in my late twenties and then again in my late 30s.
And well of course you haven't heard what I have heard, you are not a woman! You have not sought advice as a woman from a woman. Nor have you heard unsolicited advice from fellow women while out to dinner or cocktails or what have you. You are a man. Why do you think what you have personally heard would apply?
Do these women speak for all women? No. Does their being female make them experts? No. They're simply offering their opinion. As for me not hearing unsolicited advice from women directed towards other women, you're wrong about that. I have heard it. I've sat there and listened to some of my female friends and relatives talk about how to attract men. I've heard some really bad advice, but NEVER did I hear any of them tell each other to do the things you listed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorRain
To me, that is not a turn on to see a woman is too independant. It makes me think that a woman can only be more of a *****.
Where did I ever say she was too independent and exactly what is your idea of being too independent?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorRain
Wouldnt any guy feel inferior? I mean personally when I see a woman as being unemployed or working a part time job, I consider it more a turn on.
Wow, that's sad. You're actually turned on by a woman being unemployed. And to answer your question, I would not feel inferior if a woman was independent. I would feel relief. That means if she's with me, it's less likely to be for financial reasons. I dated a woman who made more money than me and never felt inferior to her. Why does how you view yourself depend how independent a woman is? Shouldn't those two things be independent of one another?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorRain
I am not the perfect alpha male or anything, but please leave sound economical decisions to many men. I just know as a man, I am a responsible spender especially since I found my true self.
Oh, so being able to make sound financial decisions is genetic? LOL. So I guess we should infer from your statement that you think all women are irresponsible when it comes to money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorRain
In summary, women tend to be ******* who cling to the extremely independant life.
In summary, there are men who just can't handle a woman being able to take care of herself and would rather she be unemployed and needing them to support her.
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And to answer your question, I would not feel inferior if a woman was independent. I would feel relief. That means if she's with me, it's less likely to be for financial reasons. I dated a woman who made more money than me and never felt inferior to her. Why does how you view yourself depend how independent a woman is? Shouldn't those two things be independent of one another?