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Most probably don't need to. The men I know came to the same conclusions themselves, usually just after high school. The ones locked into supplicating for women and getting nothing but table scraps and infidelity in return are usually the fastest to defend the pious cant, though. Common sense can carry you through life! *snickers*
I am going to start my post with a quote from Matt - and respond to him first:
Quote:
I spent my life becoming interesting to women and now that I have finally succeeded, I am too old to be interested anymore.
As many previous posters said, you didn't become interesting, you had an ULTERIOR motive - and this showed through. Now that you gave up your ulterior motive and just ARE YOURSELF, real, you are "beating them off". (your words paraphrased). Matt, I've said this before to you - you are your own proof of what we've all said. You didn't do anything for the sake of doing it, but only for what it would/could bring you in return. Now that you're not looking at a quid-pro-quo, you've become the kind of person you wanted to be.
I can't rep Julia or Avienne or many others - we think too much alike on too many issues, but I will say
DING DING DING - JJ, you started it - you expressed WELL what a lot of us think and I felt it was a close to non-judgmental as an opinion can be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight2009
Not sure why good man and nice guy have to be mutually exclusive? Can't someone be both at the same time?
They don't have to be mutually exclusive - it's the SELF-PROCLAIMED nice guys that make it seem way. And it's not limited to men - this whole discussion can be reversed. But it's that there is a preponderance of self-proclaimed nice guy men in these forums for whom this is written.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia
I didn't say they had to be mutually exclusive. Good men can be nice. Why do you need to be defined as a nice guy?
The men I have found to be most successful with women, both in long-term marriage and in general admiration and attention from women, are the men who genuinely like women. And women like them. A ladies' man loves the ladies, not just physically, but as beautiful and captivating creatures. A man who is attentive to his date (whom he fancies) but rude to the waitress (whom he does not fancy) is not someone I believe most women like. That's a common sniff test that many people employ. Anyone can be on his best behavior (nice guy). It's the character underneath (good man) that keeps us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight2009
A guy could also be genuinely nice (to everyone, not just girls, and in a sincere way), but be down on his dating luck, or not having found the right gal yet, despite repeated attempts, as well though. How does that automatically mean that he's "not nice"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SifuPhil
Not one of my major worries at this point, no...
Not attractive or enticing to WHOM? The excitement junkie? The one who will have their heart burst at 29 years of age because of their constant need for stimulation? Aren't you getting back to the "bad-boy" argument here?
I've known plenty of women who prefer bland to extravagant, who prefer middle-of-the-road guys to manic-depressives. It's that swinging pendulum concept again...some are born to swing wildly through the branches, others are content to sit quietly on the ground. Labeling one as superior to the other is, in my opinion, a mistake of amateur proportions.
You are such a bad boy - or a wannabe bad boy - but the opposite of attractive or enticing is not bland.
Quote:
Originally Posted by john-ever-learning
I love the fact that guys actually place importance on this. I mean seriously, why do you feel you have to be labled? Why can't you just be (insert name here) without a lable of nice or whatever?
I'm a guy. I do nice things and say nice things. Sometimes I say things that aren't nice and wind up with my foot in my mouth. Does that make me any less or more me? I feel I treat my fiance with respect and dignity, but at the same time we do not always agree on things, but rather than calling her a name or fear being rejected, she and I have an open disussion.
I don't understand the need to have a nice guy or bad boy lable. There's so much more to things than that. In my experience it doesn't come down to whether or not a person is nice all the time or not. Even the nicest of men can find a compatible woman. The trick is to be interesting and interested.
Have an opinion but don't be rude about it. Listen and ask questions about what's being talked about. Have a hobby and things you enjoy. When you start dating, don't stop doing those things.
Also, if a woman doesn't like a guy for whatever reason that's up to her. Why question her about it? She no more has to like you than you have to like her. Rember, there was a time that neither of you knew each other and it didn't matter then so why would it matter now? Move on. So you may be down on your luck and haven't met the right person yet. It's very frustrating, believe me I know.
As a friend once told me when I was trapped in that nice guy cycle woe is me thing, "John, you're not in a relationship because you're not ready to be in one." At the time I scoffed and believed him to be an idiot. I believed I was ready. I was a nice guy. I treated women with respect and still thought how dare they say they want nice guys yet go out with bad boys. I felt that if I was nice to women they would flock to me and couldn't wrap my mind around why they weren't. I felt women were liars and users. I felt I was an emotional blanket and nothing more.
Truthfully, looking back, my friend was right. I wasn't ready. It's what led me to marrying and divorcing a wretch of a woman. I was blinded by my insecurities to how awful she was treating me. Eventually she cheated on me and we divorced.
Finally I had to take a step back and focus what was wrong on my end. I was nice, I was kind, I didn't do anything to rock the boat. My fear of rejection was so strong that I was willing to subject myself to poor treatment and poorly treated I was. As one poster put it above, I was bland to the umpteenth degree. I had no conviction. I didn't voice my opinions. I was weak minded and had a sense of entitlement because I was so nice.
Now, I have an opinion and verbalize it. I don't have to agree with everything and I don't. At the same time I'm respectful of others opinions. My fiance and I talk, joke and sometimes we accidentally hurt each others feelings. We talk about things when that happens. We discuss why what was done or said hurt and we make up. We enjoy one another. We listen, ask questions, talk and have fun.
So self proclaimed nice guys I implore you to let go of the lable mantra. Just be yourself. Have fun and wait. I've learned that when you're ready your time will come. I know that sounds cliche but it's true. I say quit worrying about what others think about you because if you can't love yourself first how can you expect anyone else to love you? Just enjoy the time you have on this rock as it isn't a lot of time. I feel there are far better things on this planet to do than worry about why some women won't like you.
DING DING DING.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane
The problem I have with people applying the "nice" label to themselves is that it comes off as sounding entitled. Oh I'm such a nice guy. Women should prefer me over the jerk since I'll treat them better. But that's kind of like going out into the job market and saying you deserve a job more than the slacker because you work hard and he doesn't. Life isn't about what's fair or getting what you think you deserve.
Some people are nice not for its own sake, but because they expect something in return. A guy might do something nice for a girl in the hopes that she'll then want to go out with him. And when that doesn't happen, he feels like he was taken advantage of, which then leads him to stop being nice because he thinks it isn't worth it. IMO, those men were never nice to begin with since their acts of kindness came with conditions. Imagine helping a little old lady cross the street, but only because you were hoping she'd give you a tip. To me, the people who do good deeds don't expect anything in return, sometimes not even a Thank You. I think that's what separates the "nice" guy for the good guy. The latter doesn't have an ulterior motive.
I think a lot of nice guys pat themselves on the back too much. OK, so you're not one of those jerks who beats women or cheats on them. Do you expect a prize now? What they don't realize is that the chip many of them carry on their shoulders is painfully obvious to everyone else. It actually becomes the real reason they get rejected. The same thing happens to short guys. They walk around feeling insecure about their height. Women reject them and they tell themselves is must've been their height when in reality it's their insecurity that's turning her off. Same with being nice. Don't be one of those nice guys who's bitter because women favor the bad boys cause that bitterness will be oozing out of your skin and she'll reject you for that, not because you're "too nice".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight2009
But what if it's really not an act though? What if, he's being nice, because he really does genuinely want to be loved and cared about, by the female subject of his affections? That he's being nice to her, just because he sincerely cares about her, and wants her to love him and be affectionate too? What if by his nature, he's also nice to *everyone*, because it brings him pleasure, to be kind and caring to people?
From Matthew 22:39 (NIV): "...Love your neighbor as yourself." These are words I sincerely try every day, to follow, in my heart. *To be* caring, and loving, of others. To be, "nice".
You have a disconnect here. First you said he's being nice to get something back, then you say it's because it is who he is. If it's the latter, then it isn't the former. These two ARE mutually exclusive and contradictory. One is a quid-pro-quo arrangement and the other is what JJ calls a GOOD man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MortimerC
The lack of empathy in this thread is disgraceful. It comes from a place of abundance and an inability and reluctance for some to step into another’s shoes. I’m sure if you were 30 years old, living an honest life and had never gotten with a member of the opposite sex after continuous attempts, you might feel a little down as well. It’s a human reaction.
You are missing the ENTIRE BASIC CONCEPT of this thread. It is out of compassion and empathy that these discussions even take place. Those of us you claim come from a place of ABUNDANCE do not have to try to help those who complain and moan and groan - we offer a means to turn the "failures" or wants into success -- with success defined as getting what you want - the relationship. It is about helping those who feel a little "down" turn that around. It is about helping to stem the tide of bitterness and anger against the very object of one's desires.
In general my thoughts:
Well done JJ! I agree Avienne, LM, and even a few I WAS able to Rep. I really don't have much to add.
As an aside, having an "ulterior motive" is the problem, not the motive itself. I all but tell women I want them as sex objects and nothing else from the start, and I can't get enough *****. I'm positively drowning in it. I disappear for months at a time, come back for a night only to screw them and it only gets them wetter. Forsooth.
As an aside, having an "ulterior motive" is the problem, not the motive itself. I all but tell women I want them as sex objects and nothing else from the start, and I can't get enough *****. I'm positively drowning in it. I disappear for months at a time, come back for a night only to screw them and it only gets them wetter. Forsooth.
Sad that you so obviously thrive on being a user
Don't you know women like you describe have issues - emotional problems that your misuse of them only makes worse? Of course, you are as screwed up as they are, so I guess we really can't expect anything better out of you. It's very sad that you have no aspirations to be a real man one day.
As an aside, having an "ulterior motive" is the problem, not the motive itself. I all but tell women I want them as sex objects and nothing else from the start, and I can't get enough *****. I'm positively drowning in it. I disappear for months at a time, come back for a night only to screw them and it only gets them wetter. Forsooth.
That's fine for men who only want women for sex for the rest of their lives. If that type of man is realistic, he will realize that sex will be more difficult to get as he gets older unless he is very successful in other ways. If that's what you want out of life, that's fine. This thread was written for men who want girlfriends and wives. Treating women like tissues to jerk off into will not land anybody a quality girlfriend.
Some examples of a good guy but not very specific (but I believe this is true of good girls as well):
A good guy assumes good intentions first in the behavior of others. He knows how to "handle" questionable behavior without being condescending or without escalating the problem if it is worth addressing in the first place.
This next example is something I learned from another poster (maciesmom in the parenting forum) and I could not have said it any better.
A good guy treats everyone with the same basic respect which is what good manners are for. However, he will not HAVE respect for everyone, the kind of respect that is earned.
Don't you know women like you describe have issues - emotional problems that your misuse of them only makes worse? Of course, you are as screwed up as they are, so I guess we really can't expect anything better out of you. It's very sad that you have no aspirations to be a real man one day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia
That's fine for men who only want women for sex for the rest of their lives. If that type of man is realistic, he will realize that sex will be more difficult to get as he gets older unless he is very successful in other ways. If that's what you want out of life, that's fine. This thread was written for men who want girlfriends and wives. Treating women like tissues to jerk off into will not land anybody a quality girlfriend.
Don't ever trust a pretty boy. The rest of us WILL be fixing your car........ not swooning someone else while you are at the mall! The GREASY stains on the pants will prove it when you get home.
Some examples of a good guy but not very specific (but I believe this is true of good girls as well):
A good guy assumes good intentions first in the behavior of others. He knows how to "handle" questionable behavior without being condescending or without escalating the problem if it is worth addressing in the first place.
This next example is something I learned from another poster (maciesmom in the parenting forum) and is almost word-for-word and I could not have said it any better.
A good guy treats everyone with the same basic respect which is what good manners are for. However, he will not HAVE respect for everyone, the kind of respect that is earned.
To me, a good man is a true gentleman. A man who can carry a polite conversation effortlessly, who will go out of his way for family, and who is very close with his family. Old fashioned values and respect for women. He can't be cheap. Good men like kids, I don't think they need to WANT kids, but a good test would be to see if he responded well to the company of children. A good man is gentle and sincere. Most good men I know come from good, stable families and are close to female relatives.
I on the other hand come from a very unstable family, but I'm a woman, good thing I'm not a man . I would be a very unstable man, but very loving.
We're all nice guys and good men, the question is only what else we are at the same time.
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