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They have a right to do things differently than I expect, and I respect their right to do so, they just don't have to have ties to me.
I think I made that point. Nobody is forcing you to have ties to those who don't meet your expectations. This is about dealing with people who, gasp, do something against your rules.
Isn't the point of being succinct being clear and to the point. There should be no need to keep on posting your expectations. I guess we don't all start off on the same page.
A lot of men on the other hand are still stuck in the past, they didn't have a national media event to mark their own liberation, they acted alone, separate from other men in their quest for self change, they were simply respondents in the beginning days of women's lib. They were expected to follow their fathers into the historical patterns of male behavior, and not just in relationships but in all their behaviors that define them.
Are you suggesting that men's inability to listen is culturally ingrained as part of "traditional" gender roles? I don't believe it's quite that simple. Yes, many men are still stuck on outdated notions of what it means to be a man. Many of us have been raised to believe that complaining about your problems is a feminine trait. "Be a man and quit complaining" is something we probably heard at some time in our lives. The message is that men don't complain, even when they may want to. But like I said, I don't think it's that simple. Reverse the genders and I think you'd eventually run into the same issue. Imagine being a woman and your husband comes home to complain about his job. He hates his boss, coworkers, the company, etc. But he never makes any effort to find a new job. Instead he's content to keep on complaining. Do you think most women would tolerate that for very long? We can debate whether men and women's brains are wired differently or how our culture raises men and women to think differently. But in a lot of ways, I think we're more alike than we want to admit. And I think most people, male or female, would eventually get tired of hearing their partner complain. This falls under the "Don't Take Your Partner For Granted" heading. In this case, don't care for granted that your partner will always be willing to listen. You should always be grateful that they're willing to do so and not act like it's no big deal on their part. Nobody, male or female, likes feeling unappreciated and taken for granted.
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Originally Posted by crisan
I don't know what it is but people tend to think that showing support means that you will encourage the "whining" or be contaminated with whining. Its like they act out of fear that if they give an inch, the SO will try to take a mile. How sad that a relationship is based on fear.
The fear is not entirely unreasonable. People get away with whatever you let them. So if you let your partner whine about anything they want for as long as they want, then what's to stop them from thinking that it's OK with you to continue? This is not to suggest that you should never listen to your partner, just that you should be willing to set some limits.
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Originally Posted by TabulaRasa
So, the question is, by saying "it's just too much," aren't you, in effect, "whining", yourself?
No one is suggesting that you should never be allowed to whine. But there should be limits to how much and how often. So when I say "it's just too much", I'm simply drawing a line and asking the person to treat me with respect. I'm perfectly willing to listen to my partner when she needs to vent. But that doesn't entitle to her complain endlessly, especially if it's about the same thing over and over again.
The fear is not entirely unreasonable. People get away with whatever you let them. So if you let your partner whine about anything they want for as long as they want, then what's to stop them from thinking that it's OK with you to continue? This is not to suggest that you should never listen to your partner, just that you should be willing to set some limits.
So, you think that if you did not set limits your partner, any partner?, would whine out of control indefinitely?
Why exactly would you choose to date someone that complains 24/7? Or, is this just a part of the human condition? If not, such a personality, I would guess, would be riddled with dozens of peccadilloes that you would have to set limits on.
Then I think men need to work on their attention spans. Not listening to me would be reason to end the relationship and RUN. Who wants to spend the rest of their life with someone who doesn't want to talk to you unless it's to convey some bit of information that must be done quickly or he can't deal with it? I'd like to think I'm a little more important than that to him. If I'm not, he's not worth keeping. I'd rather be alone.
My husband and I have had a problem with him wanting to fix every problem I vent about but the marriage counselor came right out and told him to stop it. He explained that women, often, just want to vent about situations not change them. If we want your help, we'll ask for it. If you, however, take the attitude that we are only allowed to talk to you when we are asking for help or to convey some bit of, useful, information, don't be surprised when the relationship fails. A relationship where the partners cannot talk is, simply, a marriage of convenience. If something else ever becomes more convenient, it's over.
Once this cuts into time between the sheets, you're toast.
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler Then I think men need to work on their attention spans. Not listening to me would be reason to end the relationship and RUN. Who wants to spend the rest of their life with someone who doesn't want to talk to you unless it's to convey some bit of information that must be done quickly or he can't deal with it? I'd like to think I'm a little more important than that to him. If I'm not, he's not worth keeping. I'd rather be alone.
My husband and I have had a problem with him wanting to fix every problem I vent about but the marriage counselor came right out and told him to stop it. He explained that women, often, just want to vent about situations not change them. If we want your help, we'll ask for it. If you, however, take the attitude that we are only allowed to talk to you when we are asking for help or to convey some bit of, useful, information, don't be surprised when the relationship fails. A relationship where the partners cannot talk is, simply, a marriage of convenience. If something else ever becomes more convenient, it's over.
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Originally Posted by TKramar
Be succinct. A lot can be said in a sentence or two, not in paragraphs.
What she is saying (to put it succinctly) is that if he fixed her problems then she'd have nothing to complain about and this would make her unhappy.
Originally Posted by lovesMountains First of all, this does not apply to ALL men - some men really don't mind listening to what is important to the women in their lives
I think the last line of the article says it all:
Real men share power, real men are partners, real men know that real women need real respect.
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Originally Posted by lakeman0
this whole "real" man thing irks me.
Real men can put in 3 words what most women can't pack into 25.
DennyCrane, in my experience, ignoring a need does not make it go away. It comes back stronger.
For example, I don't allow my daughter to whine but not out of fear that if I don't teach her, she will never learn. I simply won't listen to it but that doesn't mean she will never whine. I also don't tell her things like "quit whining" or act annoyed with her. That also doesn't mean that when she finally decides to speak without whining, I will continue to ignore what she has to say.
The point is that I let her know how she can get my attention. 1. no whining. 2. no crying. 3. no yelling. 4. be to the point, especially while I am cooking, unless we are just spending quality time with each other.
Those are my expectations and I don't do it out of fear that I will encourage bad behavior if I don't do it. I simply won't allow it.
When it comes to adults, it would be nice if these behaviors are put into place through their upbringing. If not, then you have to be respectful about how you set limits and they should respect them.
DennyCrane, in my experience, ignoring a need does not make it go away. It comes back stronger.
For example, I don't allow my daughter to whine but not out of fear that if I don't teach her, she will never learn. I simply won't listen to it but that doesn't mean she will never whine. I also don't tell her things like "quit whining" or act annoyed with her. That also doesn't mean that when she finally decides to speak without whining, I will continue to ignore what she has to say.
The point is that I let her know how she can get my attention. 1. no whining. 2. no crying. 3. no yelling. 4. be to the point, especially while I am cooking, unless we are just spending quality time with each other.
Those are my expectations and I don't do it out of fear that I will encourage bad behavior if I don't do it. I simply won't allow it.
When it comes to adults, it would be nice if these behaviors are put into place through their upbringing. If not, then you have to be respectful about how you set limits and they should respect them.
Right on! This is how my parents handled things when I was growing up too.
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I'd like to think I'm a little more important than that to him. If I'm not, he's not worth keeping. I'd rather be alone.
