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Old 08-05-2011, 06:22 AM
 
Location: Where Dance Music comes first
1,904 posts, read 2,983,037 times
Reputation: 2260

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Quote:
Originally Posted by max's mama View Post
Russia is soon going to supersede America in their power. Trust me, less and less EE women want to migrate to USA. People are living in the past and still value this country for more than it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Americanwoman54 View Post
May I ask how you know this? Have your been there? Just wondering...
Quote:
Originally Posted by max's mama View Post
I'm FROM there. Born and raised. And rest assured, follow their politics very closely.
I don't know about that. California's GDP alone is greater than that of Russia.
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Old 08-05-2011, 06:31 AM
 
Location: South FL
9,444 posts, read 17,357,275 times
Reputation: 8075
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raging-Hetero View Post
I don't know about that. California's GDP alone is greater than that of Russia.
If you want to talk about politics with me, you can take it to DM.
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Old 08-05-2011, 07:22 AM
 
Location: Central Florida
973 posts, read 1,702,667 times
Reputation: 1110
Quote:
Originally Posted by max's mama View Post
I'm FROM there. Born and raised. And rest assured, follow their politics very closely.
Ok fair enough, but when have you last been back or talked to Russian or other Eastern European women?? I was there in 2007 and to several other former satellite countries as well as living in Serbia, and I would say that 3-5 women would ask me if I knew of an American who was available to marry so they could get out of the country and begin a new life. So this comes from my experiences.


May I ask of you then, why did you leave???
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Old 08-05-2011, 07:24 AM
 
2,618 posts, read 6,154,138 times
Reputation: 2119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans63 View Post
Wow, this is an active thread.

To answer the OP's question ("Why does it seem that alot of women complain they can't find a decent man?"), it would seem that the answer, based on recent posts, is:

...because women don't return calls to decent men who leave them a decent message.

Threre's nothing wrong with the message Cdubs left. He sounds perfectly gentlemanly and interested. He is the decent man that women complain they can't find. As he pointed out, returning his call would not only be the courteous thing to do, it would also serve to open up the lines of communication so that any uncertainty about interest would be resolved. It's not necessary for him to be the smooth, expert alpha womanizer in every phone call. Maybe he's busy in his career to the point where he doesn't have time to go to "alpha male voice message" classes. To beat the guy up for this is a bit much.

If Cdubs leaves a second message that's more flirty or has a more specific invitation, and she returns his call, that either proves that she needed a better message, or, it proves that she needed to be hounded a bit before getting around to returning his call. Or who knows what it proves.

Also, some have commented on his bitter attitude, and that he's seeing women in an unequal way (e.g., they lose value over time, while his goes up). I think what some people are missing is that this is after a long stretch of making a sincere effort to find a relationship of equals, only to find women who are disrespectful and unreliable. I think his point is that if they don't want a sincere relationship of equals, then there's no point to keep offering that. If they want to be dealt with in an unequal way, then he can do it too. Perhaps it's reasonable.

I think Cdubs story is significant in that it's not just his experience, but the experience of a lot of decent men these days. I think it's gotten worse over time. I'm not sure why, but I posted something about the "Provider/Stud" complex earlier in this thread. I get the impression that, in recent decades, women have developed an increasingly sharp fixation on two types of guys, Mr. Studly Steroid (e.g., the neanderthal), and Mr. Paycheck Provider (e.g., the high-powered executive). Therefore, a lot of decent men who don't "fit the profile", especially ones in their 20s, are getting increasingly ignored. And that's why their phone messages aren't getting returned. It has very little to do with what's in the message.

This problem seems particularly severe in the U.S., or perhaps the Anglosphere, and in northern Europe as well (or so I've read from others). So one strategy might be to find a country where a sense of normalcy has not yet been destroyed.

Another thing I'd recommend to Cdubs is to find a men's group of some kind, as there's a lot of value men can get from each other by learning about what works in each others' lives. In a forum like this, nobody can really get to know you, people will make irrelevant comments, and will pick on you and "pile on" for silly reasons (as you've noticed by now).

And to the women who are being picky and piling on, I would suggest that it would be more constructive for you to educate each other, and your daughters, your nieces, etc., in recognizing what a decent man looks like.

Hint: it's guys like Cdubs, who leave messages like the one he left.

Regarding the following:



Yes, there are many people for whom that equation holds true. There are many for whom it does not. It's like saying, "getting a degree + being presentable in an interview = getting the kind of job and salary you want."

I would agree if we say "increases your chances." I do not agree if we say, "if you do X, you will get Y." The posts I was responding to were phrased as the latter. My point is that those posts were inaccurate. There are many people who did X and did not get Y. So what, they aren't people? Their experience doesn't count? It's a little impolite to marginalize people whose lives violate the cliches that make you feel good.

For more examples, see the post from Sprawling_Homeowner in this thread. I'm just saying that it's more compassionate to recognize the legitimacy of such persons and their experiences (and there are a lot of them), rather than to marginalize them while promoting cute cliches.

And I would add that equations such as the above hold true in some countries better than others (as I mentioned, ones where a sense of normalcy has not been destroyed yet). In some places, just having a decent job, and being basically friendly, will (far more than here) bring dating opportunities. There, you don't have to be some kind of expert womanizer. Work is work, and dating is more relaxed. That seems more normal to me.

Regarding the following:


I was just adding some clarification to your comment about Russian women's "bad boy" fixation. My clarification is consistent with what is widely known about "bad boy" fixations. Your response, on the other hand, adds no clarification relevant to that topic. In fact, your resorting to ad hominem (look it up) shows nothing other than that you feel uncomfortable with my remark. In that case, I suggest you do yourself a favor and look up 'cognitive dissonance', and also 'projection' while you're at it.

Or alternatively, you can just post to assert your superiority (again), and give us the opportunity to bow to your vastly superior experience and expertise, and bask in your all-knowing glow of brilliance.

Just a friendly suggestion.
Great post. I wish there were more people who share the same intelligence on this forum. Some people just give the same cliche advice and messages and tend to always point the finger back at the poster as they have no other explanation of what is wrong. Sure, many of us look to ourselves as the cause of our own problems, but in many cases there's no fault on us and we tend to be our own harshest critics. Some things are just out of our hands.

The dating world today is just a reflection of the world changing, and unfortunately I now see this is not something for me. I walked in my apt yesterday and found my roommate and all these lady friends of his huddled around the TV watching Jersey Shore and Teen Mom. WTF is this world coming to?
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Old 08-05-2011, 07:29 AM
 
Location: Back in the gym...Yo Adrian!
10,172 posts, read 20,742,717 times
Reputation: 19861
Quote:
Originally Posted by Americanwoman54 View Post
Ok fair enough, but when have you last been back or talked to Russian or other Eastern European women?? I was there in 2007 and to several other former satellite countries as well as living in Serbia, and I would say that 3-5 women would ask me if I knew of an American who was available to marry so they could get out of the country and begin a new life. So this comes from my experiences.


May I ask of you then, why did you leave???
I think the type of women you are talking about are the ones who you would typically find hanging around areas that are heavy with tourism and opportunities to hook up with American or other foreign men present themselves.

When I traveled outside the United States I noticed that each country had it's "American Man Groupies" who typically congregated in areas where Americans took in the nightlife and tourism. If you looked outside of those areas, none of the local women were throwing themselves at American men. I'm talking about countries in Asia and South America, where poverty is fairly common.

There will always be foreign women from any country who will jump at the chance to be with an American man, but these women are not the majority from any given country. In fact, a lot of them don't want anything to do with an American man. Of course this is from my personal observations and YMMV.
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Old 08-05-2011, 07:36 AM
 
Location: Central Florida
973 posts, read 1,702,667 times
Reputation: 1110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolhand68 View Post
I think the type of women you are talking about are the ones who you would typically find hanging around areas that are heavy with tourism and opportunities to hook up with American or other foreign men present themselves.

When I traveled outside the United States I noticed that each country had it's "American Man Groupies" who typically congregated in areas where Americans took in the nightlife and tourism. If you looked outside of those areas, none of the local women were throwing themselves at American men. I'm talking about countries in Asia and South America, where poverty is fairly common.

There will always be foreign women from any country who will jump at the chance to be with an American man, but these women are not the majority from any given country. In fact, a lot of them don't want anything to do with an American man. Of course this is from my personal observations and YMMV.

Well to be honest, they really weren't touristy places and my friends are all basically in education or business, but the women I met through them were often unemployed or working at a job they hated and living at home in cramped former communistic quarters. And I think the mindset of the South American and Asia women is totally different in this area from that of the area I had lived, but again, like you, these are my personal observations as well.
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Old 08-05-2011, 08:11 AM
 
2,028 posts, read 1,885,164 times
Reputation: 1001
This was an excellent, well balanced post. I wish I could rep you again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans63 View Post
Wow, this is an active thread.

To answer the OP's question ("Why does it seem that alot of women complain they can't find a decent man?"), it would seem that the answer, based on recent posts, is:

...because women don't return calls to decent men who leave them a decent message.

Threre's nothing wrong with the message Cdubs left. He sounds perfectly gentlemanly and interested. He is the decent man that women complain they can't find. As he pointed out, returning his call would not only be the courteous thing to do, it would also serve to open up the lines of communication so that any uncertainty about interest would be resolved. It's not necessary for him to be the smooth, expert alpha womanizer in every phone call. Maybe he's busy in his career to the point where he doesn't have time to go to "alpha male voice message" classes. To beat the guy up for this is a bit much.

If Cdubs leaves a second message that's more flirty or has a more specific invitation, and she returns his call, that either proves that she needed a better message, or, it proves that she needed to be hounded a bit before getting around to returning his call. Or who knows what it proves.

Also, some have commented on his bitter attitude, and that he's seeing women in an unequal way (e.g., they lose value over time, while his goes up). I think what some people are missing is that this is after a long stretch of making a sincere effort to find a relationship of equals, only to find women who are disrespectful and unreliable. I think his point is that if they don't want a sincere relationship of equals, then there's no point to keep offering that. If they want to be dealt with in an unequal way, then he can do it too. Perhaps it's reasonable.

I think Cdubs story is significant in that it's not just his experience, but the experience of a lot of decent men these days. I think it's gotten worse over time. I'm not sure why, but I posted something about the "Provider/Stud" complex earlier in this thread. I get the impression that, in recent decades, women have developed an increasingly sharp fixation on two types of guys, Mr. Studly Steroid (e.g., the neanderthal), and Mr. Paycheck Provider (e.g., the high-powered executive). Therefore, a lot of decent men who don't "fit the profile", especially ones in their 20s, are getting increasingly ignored. And that's why their phone messages aren't getting returned. It has very little to do with what's in the message.

This problem seems particularly severe in the U.S., or perhaps the Anglosphere, and in northern Europe as well (or so I've read from others). So one strategy might be to find a country where a sense of normalcy has not yet been destroyed.

Another thing I'd recommend to Cdubs is to find a men's group of some kind, as there's a lot of value men can get from each other by learning about what works in each others' lives. In a forum like this, nobody can really get to know you, people will make irrelevant comments, and will pick on you and "pile on" for silly reasons (as you've noticed by now).

And to the women who are being picky and piling on, I would suggest that it would be more constructive for you to educate each other, and your daughters, your nieces, etc., in recognizing what a decent man looks like.

Hint: it's guys like Cdubs, who leave messages like the one he left.

Regarding the following:



Yes, there are many people for whom that equation holds true. There are many for whom it does not. It's like saying, "getting a degree + being presentable in an interview = getting the kind of job and salary you want."

I would agree if we say "increases your chances." I do not agree if we say, "if you do X, you will get Y." The posts I was responding to were phrased as the latter. My point is that those posts were inaccurate. There are many people who did X and did not get Y. So what, they aren't people? Their experience doesn't count? It's a little impolite to marginalize people whose lives violate the cliches that make you feel good.

For more examples, see the post from Sprawling_Homeowner in this thread. I'm just saying that it's more compassionate to recognize the legitimacy of such persons and their experiences (and there are a lot of them), rather than to marginalize them while promoting cute cliches.

And I would add that equations such as the above hold true in some countries better than others (as I mentioned, ones where a sense of normalcy has not been destroyed yet). In some places, just having a decent job, and being basically friendly, will (far more than here) bring dating opportunities. There, you don't have to be some kind of expert womanizer. Work is work, and dating is more relaxed. That seems more normal to me.

Regarding the following:


I was just adding some clarification to your comment about Russian women's "bad boy" fixation. My clarification is consistent with what is widely known about "bad boy" fixations. Your response, on the other hand, adds no clarification relevant to that topic. In fact, your resorting to ad hominem (look it up) shows nothing other than that you feel uncomfortable with my remark. In that case, I suggest you do yourself a favor and look up 'cognitive dissonance', and also 'projection' while you're at it.

Or alternatively, you can just post to assert your superiority (again), and give us the opportunity to bow to your vastly superior experience and expertise, and bask in your all-knowing glow of brilliance.

Just a friendly suggestion.
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Old 08-05-2011, 08:21 AM
 
Location: Tucson
42,831 posts, read 88,042,435 times
Reputation: 22814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans63 View Post
I'm not sure why, but I posted something about the "Provider/Stud" complex earlier in this thread. I get the impression that, in recent decades, women have developed an increasingly sharp fixation on two types of guys, Mr. Studly Steroid (e.g., the neanderthal), and Mr. Paycheck Provider (e.g., the high-powered executive).
This quintessential dilemma has existed everywhere since the beginning of times and it's not about to go away, either. Also, it's not any different than men being torn between wanting the looks of an empty-headed bimbo and the virtues of a barefoot pregnant wife cleaning and cooking all day.
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Old 08-05-2011, 08:34 AM
 
59 posts, read 65,370 times
Reputation: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ro2113 View Post
You do have a point. Everytime I go out I'm sure to see a fit and skinny guy with an overweight woman. But you hardly see it the other way around. Hell even overweight women don't want to be seen with overweight men.

Us guys do get a bad rep. We're constantly labeled shallow but it couldn't be farther from the truth. We admire and might even fantasize about Megan Fox and Scarlett Johansson but in general we know they are unobtainable. If a girl is hot but has a crappy attitude than most guys will just want hit it and quit it for a lack of a better term. The only guys who would be willing to put up with that crap are losers.
Exactly, I can't describe the number of times even as I type this that I dealt with women who expect nothing but the 10/10 prince charming to come and sweep them off their feet, a lot of women that I encounter in my professional capacity expect Hollywood to occur right at their door step, with a guy that has an 8 pack, incredibly witty/funny coming to them and giving them every unrealistic demand they have, however, should a guy have some flaws, say a little overweight or a little shorter than average, he would be off the radar immediately, and his personality is of no use.

One exception is the players, and the pick up artists, most of these women who expect their prince charmings I have seen end up with that one big mistake they have committed y'day night, aka the players.
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Old 08-05-2011, 08:44 AM
 
Location: South FL
9,444 posts, read 17,357,275 times
Reputation: 8075
Quote:
Originally Posted by Americanwoman54 View Post
Ok fair enough, but when have you last been back or talked to Russian or other Eastern European women?? I was there in 2007 and to several other former satellite countries as well as living in Serbia, and I would say that 3-5 women would ask me if I knew of an American who was available to marry so they could get out of the country and begin a new life. So this comes from my experiences.


May I ask of you then, why did you leave???
I speak to Russian women almost every day. I have plenty of friends there who I speak to through Facebook. MY friends are not in the rush to move here or even visit. They are happy where they are.

We moved because of raging anti-semitism in Ukraine and at the time we moved (mid -90s) the economy in America was booming and Ukraine was in shambles due to changes (perestroika).

Russia is getting stronger and stronger and America doesn't seem as appealing to these women as some Americans would like to believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolhand68 View Post
I think the type of women you are talking about are the ones who you would typically find hanging around areas that are heavy with tourism and opportunities to hook up with American or other foreign men present themselves.

When I traveled outside the United States I noticed that each country had it's "American Man Groupies" who typically congregated in areas where Americans took in the nightlife and tourism. If you looked outside of those areas, none of the local women were throwing themselves at American men. I'm talking about countries in Asia and South America, where poverty is fairly common.

There will always be foreign women from any country who will jump at the chance to be with an American man, but these women are not the majority from any given country. In fact, a lot of them don't want anything to do with an American man. Of course this is from my personal observations and YMMV.
Thank you. Finally the word of reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Americanwoman54 View Post
Well to be honest, they really weren't touristy places and my friends are all basically in education or business, but the women I met through them were often unemployed or working at a job they hated and living at home in cramped former communistic quarters. And I think the mindset of the South American and Asia women is totally different in this area from that of the area I had lived, but again, like you, these are my personal observations as well.
Maybe the women you met, but that doesn't speak for majority. Only about your personal experience.

Last edited by max's mama; 08-05-2011 at 08:55 AM..
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