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(Bolded portion above) Women also place *themselves* on pedestals, though... (I have an earlier thread on this, also.) Women ultimately have so much more power than the men, when it comes to setting the parameters for a relationship.
Some of them do put themselves up there...we can stay clear away from them! They have more power then men if men are trying to get something from them (approval, sex, relationship, whatever). If a guy is truly not dependent on the outcome (not just telling himself this) then he has as much power as her. It's a goal of mine to completely get to this point.
If you're talking about the numbers game you have a point...but only if you're like 90% of the other guys who come up to her and offer her a drink or a compliment to "earn" the right to talk to her.
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Originally Posted by Knight2009
Also, I stand by my earlier statement that women are "programmed" by society to have the preferences they usually want...and men are "programmed" to display these preferences, as any deviation from that norm is strongly discouraged even when they are boys. Society rigs the game, so to speak. For example, can you imagine how different gender relations would be, if society instead overtly discouraged the aggressive, macho, power-exuding male, and instead championed the soft, caring, soft-spoken and sensitive type of man, in young girls' eyes? That would have the exact opposite effect, of what we have now. The point is: the game is completely rigged and biased from the outset.
Well, there will always be a small portion of women who become attracted to some soft-spoken, soft man. But not the majority....
Listen, I made a key distinction. Women are attracted to masculinity! There's nothing society or anything else can change about that. But masculinity doesn't mean getting into fights or boosting cars. It means having cajones to stay firm about your limits and desires. It means planning and deciding what to do for the night instead of "i don't know, what do you want to do?"
This stuff is hardwired into our genetics. It's the old nature vs. nurture huh?
Some of them do put themselves up there...we can stay clear away from them! They have more power then men if men are trying to get something from them (approval, sex, relationship, whatever). If a guy is truly not dependent on the outcome (not just telling himself this) then he has as much power as her. It's a goal of mine to completely get to this point.
If you're talking about the numbers game you have a point...but only if you're like 90% of the other guys who come up to her and offer her a drink or a compliment to "earn" the right to talk to her.
True...
Quote:
Well, there will always be a small portion of women who become attracted to some soft-spoken, soft man. But not the majority....
Listen, I made a key distinction. Women are attracted to masculinity! There's nothing society or anything else can change about that. But masculinity doesn't mean getting into fights or boosting cars. It means having cajones to stay firm about your limits and desires. It means planning and deciding what to do for the night instead of "i don't know, what do you want to do?"
This stuff is hardwired into our genetics. It's the old nature vs. nurture huh?
Ah...but who defines just exactly what makes "masculinity", "masculinity"? Society does. (Pls see post #59 for more info.)
You are saying I said things that I didn't say. Just look around you: what are young boys given to play with? Toy soldiers. Toy war machines. They are inundated with cartoons full of simulated violence. ETA: In the 80s when I was growing up, I thought cartoons like G.I. Joe and Transformers were cool. Now they disgust me, b/c I realize now that they were ultimately only tools and social engineering for encouraging future soldiers in the military. Parents teach their boys that showing outward emotion (particularly overt love and affection) is weak. Crying is weak and for sissies. Hugging and kissing past a certain age is strongly discouraged. They are encouraged to bring out their "inner tough guy", at every turn. Girls on the other hand are discouraged from little if any of the above.
These are only a few examples, of what I'm talking about...
Parents have control over what they give their kids to play with.
You're buying into something because you want to.
I didn't grow up with those being the only parameters for genders.
So sorry that you did, but it's not society that does that, it's what parents choose to do.
Knight, I think you're getting at that society is harming relationships by encouraging aggressiveness and violence in men but the opposite in women?? If I misread forgive me.
I do agree that culture's obsession with violence is bad, but I think the "neutering" of men is the problem-causer here. Some countries like Sweden are in the forefront of this movement...I read that in kindergartens there gender roles will no longer be used and neither will he/she pronouns. We'll just have to see how that works out for them
When the phrase "gender role" is used here, I take it to only refer to the breadwinner/housewife dynamic.
While economic and social choices for women are good news, underlying human psychology remains the same. For instance, the vast majority of women are attracted to leadership and masculinity. Not the "bro" macho masculinity, but a guy who takes initiative, is positive, and makes her feel safe. The problem is the confusion about how to behave...and this has led to MASSIVE discontent and bitterness among both sexes.
I mean we have the "nice" guys who are respectful but just have no spine complaining about a lack of attraction, and the girls who tell themselves they want to change a man into the person they want .....then lose respect for him when he submits and changes for her. Men are putting women on pedestals because that's what pop culture tells them to do (just watch any commercial or sitcom) and women are turned off by this. On the other hand many women are unsure of what they want and end up hurting themselves by dating jerks or being single and complaining about their being no good men.
The good news is, it's possible to remain masculine/feminine in the modern world. Relationships are healthy as long as no one is neutered. It's when we tamper with these base human desires that causes problems...not when we let women have careers!
Now, all that said, let's all go outside and breathe some fresh air Society has its problems but there are still TONS of great individuals out there!
I mostly agree with your post, it's good-hearted, but I do not think it's bitterness between the sexes, rather a segment. This segment will probably always exist. Further, I hate the phrase "we let them" as if it's men letting, and worse, the men on this forum.
Ah...but who defines just exactly what makes "masculinity", "masculinity"? Society does. (Pls see post #59 for more info.)
I get what you're saying...and there are girls out there who date abusive jerks because they give off the perception of being "alpha". I don't want to get started on the whole "daddy issue" debate because that's for another thread.
Women (and men) respond to buttons being pushed. Society might say push them by being a macho he-man, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. It's easy to screen for the psychos (don't be a thug/******** and those types won't go for you) leaving the normal ones good to go!
Knight, I think you're getting at that society is harming relationships by encouraging aggressiveness and violence in men but the opposite in women?? If I misread forgive me.
I do agree that culture's obsession with violence is bad, but I think the "neutering" of men is the problem-causer here. Some countries like Sweden are in the forefront of this movement...I read that in kindergartens there gender roles will no longer be used and neither will he/she pronouns. We'll just have to see how that works out for them
I guess what I'm saying is, society intentionally nurtures and breeds the male traits, that are commonly accepted as "masculinity". They are not hardwired that way...they are brought out. Society encourages a young male stereotype that is strong, powerful, and assertive, but much more emotionless than their young female counterparts. I bet you that if young boys were raised more like young girls emotionally and on an emotional level (encouraged to be overtly sensitive, kind, loving, encouraged to hug and be affectionate as much as they want...to explore their positive emotions), women would find *these* kinds of men to be more attractive, than the the currently-accepted male stereotype.
ETA: of course, the kind of men mentioned above are useless, to the military-industrial complex.
I mostly agree with your post, it's good-hearted, but I do not think it's bitterness between the sexes, rather a segment. This segment will probably always exist. Further, I hate the phrase "we let them" as if it's men letting, and worse, the men on this forum.
Cheers And it was just a turn of speech. Not that any individual man lets you work, but our civilization provides that.
You're right that the segment will always exist. But as someone who used to be in the segment I try to fight it.
I guess what I'm saying is, society intentionally nurtures and breeds the male traits, that are commonly accepted as "masculinity". They are not hardwired that way...they are brought out. Society encourages a young male stereotype that is strong, powerful, and assertive, but much more emotionless than their young female counterparts. I bet you that if young boys were raised more like young girls emotionally and on an emotional level (encouraged to be overtly sensitive, kind, loving, encouraged to hug and be affectionate as much as they want...to explore their positive emotions), women would find *these* kinds of men to be more attractive, than the the currently-accepted male stereotype.
ETA: of course, the kind of men mentioned above are useless, to the military-industrial complex.
Again, being masculine has nothing to do with not letting emotions show or anything to do with that. Like it or not, it does mean assertive and strong. I think you put too much faith into the gender social construct idea. I think in your scenario women would be attracted to some men, but only based on looks. But for the most part two gender-less creatures can't attract each other.
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(I have an earlier thread on this, also.) Women ultimately have so much more power than the men, when it comes to setting the parameters for a relationship. 
Society has its problems but there are still TONS of great individuals out there!
