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I think it all depends on the person. I have a girlfriend that has chased many a guy away because she texts, calls, and emails way too much for most people. I, myself, dated a guy in college that thought I was more into him than he was into me because I called him a couple times to see if he was free. When I was dating my husband - I asked him if I called him too often and he said that he loved talking to me so he didn't think it was possible for me to call too often.
Everyone is different. Some people are more forward and some people are shyer. And, as with everything, I think that if there is something bothering you - you should just be honest with the other person and let them know. Some women might be afraid of coming on too strong. Some women are old fashioned. If you aren't getting what you want out of the relationship - you should either speak your mind or move on. Women aren't mind readers either - so if you have a problem - you should tell her. My ex kept everything inside for almost 2 years and was frustrated that things never got better. I told him - how could I try to make things better if I didn't know anything was wrong?
if a girl is interested in a guy i dont think she should expect a guy to chase after her, may initially contacting her but for him to have to do all the leg work in the inititial steps in dating sounds dumb
Here's the deal. Men have pursued women for years, and still do. You want to sit back and let the woman pursue you, then fine. There are some women out there that will do that, but you might not like those women, either. Chances are, that a gal that you like is also being eyed by another dude as well. And you know what? That guy is probably going to do whatever he can to turn her head and win her heart. And there YOU are, sitting back, wondering why she doesn't just see what a great guy you are, without you having to do anything special. But she needs more from you, before "choosing you" than you need from her. This is basic human nature.
This is from a great article that helps to explain it.
Human courtship rituals are not only complex, but often ad libbed. There is no one right way for a man to court a woman. Indeed, there are as many ways to court a woman as there are women. This again comes back to the fact that humans can think.
What often happens is that a man desires a woman, based upon his instinctive criteria -- what does she look like? Does she fit his anatomical criteria for acceptability? This is something he can determine by simply seeing her. After he's applied his physical criteria, he moves to the social. First, he tries to discover whether she satisfies what he considers the right societal criteria. Then he tries to determine if he satisfies what he thinks she thinks are the right societal criteria. One the basis of this guesswork, he decides whether he should pursue her to follow his desires.
He then initiates contact with her. When, where or how he will approach her has no set form or ritual. There is no particular mating season, like in deer; humans can mate anytime. There is no set mating ground, like the bower bird's bower or the seal's beach, where a female's presence means she is looking to mate. A woman's presence in a certain location, or any location, says nothing about her desire for sex. If a bird sings his mating song well, or a stag struts, bluffs and fights better than others, he's the most desirable male and mates with the female. Human courtship follows no such set criteria about what a man must do and how to do it to guarantee success. In fact, the less ritualized and more original his approach is, the more likely a woman is to accept it (if not him). He approaches her to determine if he guessed correctly about how well their criteria match. This he often does through conversation: what does she say, how does she say it, how does she respond to what he says and how he says it. Note that, for the man, physical desire almost always comes first.
She, on the other hand, often waits for the initiation of contact. If she initiates contact the man could assume that he already satisfies her criteria. Exceptions, of course, exist. If she sees a man that appears to satisfy some of her criteria, she may initiate contact. For example, he may be physically attractive, apparently have money and/or power and/or status, show intelligence and sensitivity to those around him, or otherwise satisfy some or all of her criteria. In any case, she then evaluates those men who contact her (or she contacts) to see if they really satisfy her criteria. Again, this is often done through conversation.
This is called dating.
If she fits his instinctive criteria, he will often ignore it if she doesn't fit his societal criteria. Physical attractiveness is all his instincts say is necessary for him to desire sex. She, on the other hand, will rarely ignore her societal criteria since her instincts demand they be considered in her determination of the right man. Physical attractiveness may be enough for her to allow his approach, but he must satisfy her other criteria before she will allow sex. She may even ignore physical attractiveness if he satisfies her societal criteria to a large enough extent. Those societal criteria have a much greater influence on her than his physical appearance.
Here's the deal. Men have pursued women for years, and still do. You want to sit back and let the woman pursue you, then fine. There are some women out there that will do that, but you might not like those women, either. Chances are, that a gal that you like is also being eyed by another dude as well. And you know what? That guy is probably going to do whatever he can to turn her head and win her heart. And there YOU are, sitting back, wondering why she doesn't just see what a great guy you are, without you having to do anything special. But she needs more from you, before "choosing you" than you need from her. This is basic human nature.
This is from a great article that helps to explain it.
Human courtship rituals are not only complex, but often ad libbed. There is no one right way for a man to court a woman. Indeed, there are as many ways to court a woman as there are women. This again comes back to the fact that humans can think.
What often happens is that a man desires a woman, based upon his instinctive criteria -- what does she look like? Does she fit his anatomical criteria for acceptability? This is something he can determine by simply seeing her. After he's applied his physical criteria, he moves to the social. First, he tries to discover whether she satisfies what he considers the right societal criteria. Then he tries to determine if he satisfies what he thinks she thinks are the right societal criteria. One the basis of this guesswork, he decides whether he should pursue her to follow his desires.
He then initiates contact with her. When, where or how he will approach her has no set form or ritual. There is no particular mating season, like in deer; humans can mate anytime. There is no set mating ground, like the bower bird's bower or the seal's beach, where a female's presence means she is looking to mate. A woman's presence in a certain location, or any location, says nothing about her desire for sex. If a bird sings his mating song well, or a stag struts, bluffs and fights better than others, he's the most desirable male and mates with the female. Human courtship follows no such set criteria about what a man must do and how to do it to guarantee success. In fact, the less ritualized and more original his approach is, the more likely a woman is to accept it (if not him). He approaches her to determine if he guessed correctly about how well their criteria match. This he often does through conversation: what does she say, how does she say it, how does she respond to what he says and how he says it. Note that, for the man, physical desire almost always comes first.
She, on the other hand, often waits for the initiation of contact. If she initiates contact the man could assume that he already satisfies her criteria. Exceptions, of course, exist. If she sees a man that appears to satisfy some of her criteria, she may initiate contact. For example, he may be physically attractive, apparently have money and/or power and/or status, show intelligence and sensitivity to those around him, or otherwise satisfy some or all of her criteria. In any case, she then evaluates those men who contact her (or she contacts) to see if they really satisfy her criteria. Again, this is often done through conversation.
This is called dating.
If she fits his instinctive criteria, he will often ignore it if she doesn't fit his societal criteria. Physical attractiveness is all his instincts say is necessary for him to desire sex. She, on the other hand, will rarely ignore her societal criteria since her instincts demand they be considered in her determination of the right man. Physical attractiveness may be enough for her to allow his approach, but he must satisfy her other criteria before she will allow sex. She may even ignore physical attractiveness if he satisfies her societal criteria to a large enough extent. Those societal criteria have a much greater influence on her than his physical appearance.
i agree with a lot of this however with equality, females are now more than ever on equal footing as males. If women are said to be outnumbering men especially in places like NYC should women then be trying to impress men?
i agree with a lot of this however with equality, females are now more than ever on equal footing as males. If women are said to be outnumbering men especially in places like NYC should women then be trying to impress men?
That has NOTHING to do with it. Read the article again. A woman often requires a lot more information about a man before she can reach the same conclusion about you (you're acceptable to her) as you have already reached about her.
i agree with a lot of this however with equality, females are now more than ever on equal footing as males. If women are said to be outnumbering men especially in places like NYC should women then be trying to impress men?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChessieMom
That has NOTHING to do with it. Read the article again. A woman often requires a lot more information about a man before she can reach the same conclusion about you (you're acceptable to her) as you have already reached about her.
I agree with ChessieMom. So many men on this forum are hung up on women's rights and equality and women's lib. The fact of the matter is that women and men are just different. And furthermore, every woman is unique as is every man. Equality is about the law - equal pay, the right to vote, being considered equal under the LAW. Dating has nothing to do with laws, voting, etc. I think the sooner men get that out of their heads the better. Focus on what you want out of a relationship. Focus on what you want in a partner. Find the right person for you. And as far as women outnumbering men so shouldn't they do the impressing - honestly - that sounds like an excuse. There isn't anything that people "should" do except for be themselves and live their lives in a way that makes sense to them.
Oh geezus, this again? Haven't we had this discussion a million times already? I'm of the mind that regardless of gender, if you like someone, there is nothing wrong with making it known to the other person.
Should it be all along or in the beginning should it be the men's job to chase and initiate? At what point will the man give up if hes tired of constantly having to initiate?
OK
The accepted rule is three dates.
As a man you need to puff up and display on the first date. No kiss = No second date.
On the second date start pulling out the cards and make the move. It may work here!
If no intimate reciprocity on the third date, move on to better pastures.
Women will not put out if it continues past the third date. They either just wanted a few meals on your dime or had no intension of ever putting out.
A woman knows even before the first date if she will ever be intimate with a man. If a man has not made a move by the second date she loses any desire for them if it existed at all.
A man has to remember that women are just as primal as men, they want to be wanted/hunted/taken savagely.
As a man you need to puff up and display on the first date. No kiss = No second date.
On the second date start pulling out the cards and make the move. It may work here!
If no intimate reciprocity on the third date, move on to better pastures.
Women will not put out if it continues past the third date. They either just wanted a few meals on your dime or had no intension of ever putting out.
A woman knows even before the first date if she will ever be intimate with a man. If a man has not made a move by the second date she loses any desire for them if it existed at all.
A man has to remember that women are just as primal as men, they want to be wanted/hunted/taken savagely.
Be a animal!
Umm..if a man tried to initiate sex with me by the third date, he will never see me again.
I opted to post here prior to reading the rest of the thread (and thus based solely on the title question) since this isn't about advice, merely opinion. Opinions at large varying, it couldn't hurt.
Dating is complex because people are complex. I know that I have a few personal "rules" but that is the thing about rules of a social nature: They are personal. Sometimes it's a common "rule" and a sort of understood, unspoken agreement such as you don't date your girlfriend's ex- as soon as they broke up. There are long-standing reasons for this such as she might bash your head in with a wagon-spoke. I consider this reason quite practical.
On the other hand is it a RULE? If so, then there are clearly many who fail to abide by it and either do NOT consider it a rule or consider themselves above the law.
It's only one example and a blatant one at that.
So when we get into "rules" and expectations, it's rather a given things will vary based on any number of factors such as region, local custom and more, immediate social circles, personal preferences, personal abilities and disabilities (such as confidence or shyness), et cetera, ad nauseum.
This is my take on it.
The two of you are making eyes at each other. Whether it's at several gatherings of friends, or merely across a smoky room ONE thing holds true:
If neither of you ever get off your duff, then this will never happen.
It's not as simple as saying something like it's an indicator of interest-level because both may be quite interested AND quite shy AND have been victims of bad relationships in the past which have made them skittish in ways they've associated with approach (as in who does what). There are an endless number of variations on this theme, countless what if scenarios which could be considered.
And do you know what that translates as?
It translates to sorry, it's totally a case-by-case basis.
It's been a long-standing rule that men make the approach, not because it's a "rule", rather an expectation. It's an indicator of confidence.
Some get bent out of shape over that and their whole gender-war manifestation regarding Team Alpha, Team Beta, Team Cyrillic Ya, Team Farsi Beph, Team Sanskrit.... you get the idea. It's SILLY. CONFIDENCE, like it or not, is attractive. It doesn't mean cockiness, although it sometimes manifests that way AND there are more than adequate silly little girls who THINK that's what it's about as well as silly little boys play-acting at being Men.
Confidence IS, like it or not, about maturity and a way of measuring a little thing I like to call self-sufficiency. Displays can vary, as can estimates. CAPACITY can vary based on what is happening in one's life at the moment.
And even my version above should come under close scrutiny because it refers almost solely to physical/material manifestations of a man's social and personal character rather than the emotional/mental/spiritual.
In THIS case (man being willing to approach a woman) CONFIDENCE means I like you and am willing to stand up and walk across this room to say hello. It's a SMALL social risk -- smaller than I fear it might be, and larger than YOU believe, madam.
It is the SMALLEST of risks -- I don't care how many guys in here want to cry into their frilly panties about the inherent psychological pitfalls should the woman approached prove to be a b!+c#. She isn't going to stand up and shoot you, she isn't going to go to your job and have you fired, she isn't going to stalk you back to your place where she plans to lock you in and raze the place.
(If one of the Beta crowd pipes up that this COULD happen I swear to God I will find out your address and give it to SifuPhil -- sorry Phil, I'm pretty busy right now , you handle it -- so that the offending party can be properly culled from human genetics. It's a form of public service.)
The point is that when asking the question of at what point men should EXPECT women to initiate contact -- that's up to YOU, man in question.
If you can't be obliged to stand up and make contact, then said contact clearly means little to you, and that's fine. Your business, none of mine.
If SHE isn't interested enough to move, then either you didn't pass some personal test of hers OR it's also not important enough to her -- and that's fine, her business and none of yours OR mine.
Now, if you're talking about secondary contact... that's another story.
You'd best be paying attention to her, and if she means to keep you she'd best be paying attention to you, too. Too much time spent by either party simply waiting on the other begins to look like disinterest. And nobody likes to be the object of disinterest. It breeds curiosity, then irritation, and finally it will make them turn away. BOTH parties are responsible.
For me, it depends a little on whether the contact is in "real life" or via the internet. If internet, then there has to be a back and forth exchange - it can't be one-sided and work. In fact, I wouldn't even know some women exist unless they initiated contact in some way.
Real life is different. You see the woman and then decide to pursue or not. You need to establish mutual interest, but once you've done so to the extent of a few dates at least, then I feel she should occasionally initiate contact - and always respond to contact unless no longer interested. I'm not going to pursue if there isn't a show of interest and basic courtesy.
If the real life meeting derives from an internet exchange, then I'll expect her to initiate sooner than otherwise, because a two way exchange is already the norm.
I'm seeking what some call a peer relationship (there's a thread on that), and expect to see signs of that early on, or I'll move on.
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, you handle it -- so that the offending party can be properly culled from human genetics. It's a form of public service.)