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There is a big difference between being a doormat and paying some gold diggers way, and being a gentleman. Im pretty sure that vast majority of women appreciate a guy who knows how to treat a lady, pulls out her chair, gives her his jacket when she's cold or opens the door for her. I consider this a norm but its all based on your manners and what you were taught growing up. I do it out of habbit and its served me well. Provided, to be perfectly honest, i dont think being a gentleman is as rewarded today as it has been in a past, so perhaps this figures into some of these attitudes.
I completely agree with the OP, and apply all gender-based manners to everyone across the board. I get doors for anyone who happens to be going through the door right before or after me, and I usually go back and forth with friends/dates in terms of who pays. I carry my own bags, the only exception being if my company is in a wheelchair, since it's absolutely no extra effort for them to let me put my bag on their chair, then I ask their permission. I think chivalry is a great tradition, and sexism is not, so the problem is easily solved by being chivalrous to all parties, regardless of gender.
We already had a thread on this, started by the famous onihC, if I recall correctly.
I open a door for anyone who looks like they need help, male or female. If someone, including a stranger, opens a door for me, I always thank them, but I don't expect it. It's about being thoughtful of others. If I'm sitting on a bus, and an elderly person gets on, a pregnant woman, or anyone who looks like they really need a break, I'll offer my seat.
Here's one you didn't think of. What about the custom whereby the guy does all the ordering at the dinner table? The woman isn't supposed to interact with the waiter, the guy conveys whatever wishes or questions the lady may have. I HATE that! Chatting with the waiter, asking about the fare on the menu, etc. is one of the great pleasures of eating at restaurants. I don't like to be denied that pleasure. I'm glad some guys are flexible enough to allow me to have a good time, rather than requiring me to just sit passively while he has all the fun. That's one custom that needs to be retired.
Never even heard of this before. Everyone orders their own food when we go out.
Traditional manners are the issue . . . a rude man who would walk ahead of a woman, open a door and let it slam in her face - just for equality's sake, is an ill-mannered, selfish jerk (with issues).
I completely agree. He should get the door for the woman.
He should also get the door for a man that happens to be walking through.
We already had a thread on this, started by the famous onihC, if I recall correctly.
I open a door for anyone who looks like they need help, male or female. If someone, including a stranger, opens a door for me, I always thank them, but I don't expect it. It's about being thoughtful of others. If I'm sitting on a bus, and an elderly person gets on, a pregnant woman, or anyone who looks like they really need a break, I'll offer my seat.
Here's one you didn't think of. What about the custom whereby the guy does all the ordering at the dinner table? The woman isn't supposed to interact with the waiter, the guy conveys whatever wishes or questions the lady may have. I HATE that! Chatting with the waiter, asking about the fare on the menu, etc. is one of the great pleasures of eating at restaurants. I don't like to be denied that pleasure. I'm glad some guys are flexible enough to allow me to have a good time, rather than requiring me to just sit passively while he has all the fun. That's one custom that needs to be retired.
Wait, there are men who still do this? If I ever have a date who tries it, he'll end up with my fork in his eye.
There is a big difference between being a doormat and paying some gold diggers way, and being a gentleman. Im pretty sure that vast majority of women appreciate a guy who knows how to treat a lady, pulls out her chair, gives her his jacket when she's cold or opens the door for her. I consider this a norm but its all based on your manners and what you were taught growing up. I do it out of habbit and its served me well. Provided, to be perfectly honest, i dont think being a gentleman is as rewarded today as it has been in a past, so perhaps this figures into some of these attitudes.
It's unnecessary when I'm dating - chivalry doesn't do anything for me. I thank the guy, of course, but why all the empty flourishes? They just disrupt my train of thought (I have ADD, so this is actually a very real problem for me) and don't make me feel actually emotionally closer to the guy. I open doors, pull out my own chair and am perfectly capable of remembering to bring my sweater along. These things are automatic tasks that every adult takes care of without thinking. Now, when I had my broken elbow a little bit ago, it would have been great if I had someone to do these things for me, but on the average day, I'm not nursing a fracture.
If a guy wants to make me feel cared for and cherished, he will call me out of the blue one day to say he's thinking of me or send me a link to an article I would enjoy reading or simply give me a hug when I look a little lost. These things are real, rooted in genuine regard, concern and appreciation of who I am (rather than my gender specifically). They are not tasks that I can do for myself. But I think both parties in a relationship should be performing little acts of kindness and regard towards each other just as basic good practice.
If the "chivalrous" guy is not my date or boyfriend, then it's kind of annoying to be honest, though I would never treat the man with anything but courtesy. But good lord, I can get that door just fine, and it feels weird to be singled out for my gender by a complete stranger. Why should the fact that I'm a woman evoke that kind of response? I'm a woman - we're 50 percent of the population and as far as I know, most of us are perfectly capable of escorting ourselves through doors without a hitch. It's just a way of saying "you are female and therefore different" and it's just strange to me when you consider that I'm being acknowledged for my basic biology. But I give every guy the benefit of the doubt: They could just be really nice guys who hold the door for EVERYONE.
I wish chivalry would simply be replaced by the concept that when you see someone who appears to be having a harder time than you are, you help them out, no matter the genders involved.
And I've heard guys respond to arguments against chivalry that women who don't want to accept acts of chivalry just don't respect themselves. Bull****. Attacks on self-respect are the last argument of someone who has no justification for their side.
A woman who rejects an act of chivalry is often motivated by the fact that it has its roots in a belief system that she does not share, a belief system that was structured during a time when women were considered the weaker and inferior sex. For a woman who is a feminist, it's similar to offering a Jewish person a blessing from a priest. Sure, it might be considered an act of kindness and shared humanity, but it also goes against that person's beliefs, and they indeed have every right and justification to refuse it.
But I'll play along and say thank you like a good girl 'cause I don't want to crap on anyone's day and because acts of kindness should always be acknowledged, in my view.
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^ Totally. I hold the door open for anybody if it's appropriate to do so, but I wouldn't totally go out of my way to hold a door open or open a car door for a lady, I don't think that's really customary these days anyway. I think these are the last vestiges of the 'old ways' which aren't even really relevant to today's society. I think paying for dates, for a woman who earns a good income, just because she is female, or even being expected to proposed (I have nothing against doing it, just the idea that a man SHOULD have to do it) are just old fashioned customs which have more in common with the idea that all woman should be able to bake delicious cookies (which again would be great, but of course not something to be EXPECTED). There's nothing wrong with wanting to pay because you like/care for a person, or helping her carry her bags to just be kind, but I too recoil at the idea that you do things for someone on the basis on the gender that has no practical purpose. Lifting something heavy for an old lady or something has a practical purpose. Carrying some shopping bags full of clothes or something that aren't even heavy to 'be a gentleman' does not.
This idea that a man should always pay for a date, open the door, pull out the chair for a lady, carry her bags even when thewhen she can manage perfectly fine are, in my opinion, no less chauvinistic than the idea women should remain in the kitchen or that they can't discuss serious things. It also implies they are helpless and need males to take care of them. Yet many women accept this or call it chivalry while not accepting the other side of the coin. I respect old school feminists who are consistent instead of those so called independent women I keep hearing about on CD, who demand a rich husband to slobbers over her but really treats her like arm candy. Would you agree the above is nothing more than the more palatable side to chauvinism, when in a dating context all part of the process of buffering her up to have your way with her?
Yep.
Feminism told women that they could have their cake and eat it..literally, see how that worked out? Yet feminists still want the benefits that they had pre feminism. Nope, you get what you asked for which means you open up doors yourself, you pick up your own boxes etc.
a lot of this stuff really just goes back to putting women on the pedestal (thank the victorian era "romantics" for that). In the dating context, too many men feel that they have to still qualify for woman that they're interested in but they never bring up the question of what she has done to qualify herself as a good prospect.
Agreed, and a woman who gets mad at a guy for holding the door is a psycho feminist.
Luckily, most of these people only exist on forums and represent less than .001% of the American population.
Most women like to be treated with respect, so I don't agree with the OP.. because it represents such a small population of the people. If it was worded differently and addressed it as the small percentage of *******s and nutcases that exist, it'd be a little better.
those kind of idealogues are a tiny minority but they wield a hugely disproportionate level of influence over the media and political culture , im of the view that a majority of women despise feminism but have been intimidated into rowing in behind it by a self appointed spokesgroup
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