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I can relate to that independence and being a free thinker. I am a Libertarian, a first born, an artist, and had a very successful career in sales (including owning my own business) for twenty years.
I only say all that to point out that it is entirely possible to be APPROPRIATELY "submissive" and still be a strong-willed, creative, "outside the box" sort of person.
Everyone's different. That's why there are so many different sets of dynamics in successful relationships.
A free thinker by definition is reasoned opinion independent of authority. I don't think it's appropriate to be readily submissive to government or any entity. I understand that can be a religious thing, but overall history shows it to be a troubling state for a populace. It's how people are swayed into wars and horrific acts. With that said, Kathy, I'm having a difficult time following your train of thought. It sounds like you want to say you're a submissive, but you don't groove on what it actually means to be submissive. You seem to be a bit at odds here. Much of this is contradictory as far as I can tell.
Do you break the peace when you pay the taxes? This is a big one right here. And everyone does it like it's the most natural thing in the world.
I'm fiercely independent too and stubborn. I love to butt heads, and will crack anyone's. But when I try to do that with the government, mine just caves in. Why do you think I have to keep moving these days
I didn't realize my words were so confusing. It ruffles my feathers that I have to submit to government, to the police, largely to an entity I find unethical and people I often do not respect. I submit under threat. I can imagine why you keep having to move based on what little I know of you. You seem to be walking ball of trouble.
Well, Brauny, I've got some questions and comments for you.
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A free thinker by definition is reasoned opinion independent of authority.
1) Do you think that a person CANNOT be a free thinker if some area of their life is under the authority of another person or entity? Not sure I'm following you here.
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I don't think it's appropriate to be readily submissive to government or any entity.
Me either. I'm particular about who I allow to have authority over me. I am a natural born skeptic.
I am not saying you're doing this, but I often see people harshly judge a "traditional marriage" and make assumptions that at least one party involved is being hoodwinked or is naive, when often the choice of this model is MUTUALLY satisfactory, emotionally healthy, and entered into by two mature, goal oriented adults.
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Kathy, I'm having a difficult time following your train of thought. It sounds like you want to say your a submissive, but you don't groove on what it actually means to be submissive.
Ahh, here's the crux of the problem. What's your definition of submission in the context of marriage?
I hope I have made it very clear (Lord knows I've tried) that I do not believe that submission in marriage is healthy or commendable if it is not built upon mutual respect, appreciation, integrity, and common values. I am sure that I have already stated that but the thread is pretty long so you may have missed it. I also have stated repeatedly that I only submit to a man who loves and reveres me as Christ loved the Church - who would lay down his very life for me. A man has to be WORTHY of my submission - and not many men are. It's a tall order.
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You seem to be a bit at odds here. Much of this is contradictory as far as I can tell.
Really? I thought I was pretty clear, and others on this thread don't seem to have a problem following what I'm saying.
Btw, you know what else has worked even better over the last million years (um, humans haven't been around for a million years, btw)? CHANGE. Change is the ONLY thing that keeps happening. Change. Evolution of people and society and roles. That has ALWAYS been changing.
Why is it that people who reference history are the ones most ignorant of it?
Why is that the people who usually bring up ignorance in discussions are the ones lacking not only knowledge but common sense?
Change by itself is neither positive or negative. Not every change is beneficiary to us or has positive repercussions. Change of climate or percentage of oxygen in the air could kill us all in minutes. Not all changes in society are positive as well. There were those who believed communism meant progress but it turned out to be not true. Be careful with change, sometimes you can change bad for even worse.
Well, Brauny, I've got some questions and comments for you.
Brauny?
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1) Do you think that a person CANNOT be a free thinker if some area of their life is under the authority of another person or entity? Not sure I'm following you here.
If you submit to government authority (willfully and happily), in any way, then no I don't think so.
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Me either. I'm particular about who I allow to have authority over me. I am a natural born skeptic.
This sound contradictory to me. I don't understand how a person can happily submit to an authority while being skeptical of said authority.
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I am not saying you're doing this, but I often see people harshly judge a "traditional marriage" and make assumptions that at least one party involved is being hoodwinked or is naive, when often the choice of this model is MUTUALLY satisfactory, emotionally healthy, and entered into by two mature, goal oriented adults.
I don't think the submissive in a traditional marriage is hoodwinked. I do think the leader and the follower in these marriages are of the same cloth, the same weaknesses and strengths, the same intellect, etc. Pretty much how I tend to view marriages across the board. As far as judgements go, it depends on the context of the situation.
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Ahh, here's the crux of the problem. What's your definition of submission in the context of marriage?
I suppose it depends on the marriage. It covers what you can find in the dictionary. To yield to authority, to acknowledge a superior, etc. But, I know that some marriages have a kink involved. Other marriages have a religious bent, which I find very troubling. Comparing the husband with the perfect Christ and the church, who would never question the Christ, with the wife is freaky.
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I hope I have made it very clear (Lord knows I've tried) that I do not believe that submission in marriage is healthy or commendable if it is not built upon mutual respect, appreciation, integrity, and common values. I am sure that I have already stated that but the thread is pretty long so you may have missed it. I also have stated repeatedly that I only submit to a man who loves and reveres me as Christ loved the Church - who would lay down his very life for me. A man has to be WORTHY of my submission - and not many men are. It's a tall order.
Really? I thought I was pretty clear, and others on this thread don't seem to have a problem following what I'm saying.
Oh well.
Well, much of it doesn't make sense to me. I think I have to be honest about that. It's not that I'm entirely unfamiliar with the concepts (raised Christian), but we're very different people so it's to be expected.
Why is that the people who usually bring up ignorance in discussions are the ones lacking not only knowledge but common sense?
Change by itself is neither positive or negative. Not every change is beneficiary to us or has positive repercussions. Change of climate or percentage of oxygen in the air could kill us all in minutes. Not all changes in society are positive as well. There were those who believed communism meant progress but it turned out to be not true. Be careful with change, sometimes you can change bad for even worse.
The point is that progress only occurs with change. There is good and bad, but it's better than being stagnant. And we're here because this is where we want to be.
Why is that the people who usually bring up ignorance in discussions are the ones lacking not only knowledge but common sense?
Change by itself is neither positive or negative. Not every change is beneficiary to us or has positive repercussions. Change of climate or percentage of oxygen in the air could kill us all in minutes. Not all changes in society are positive as well. There were those who believed communism meant progress but it turned out to be not true. Be careful with change, sometimes you can change bad for even worse.
A. What Braun said
and
B. You still haven't explained to me what qualifies a less accomplished person (if you will pardon the expression) such as yourself to run my life. The meat and two veg?
Well, you shortened my name - so I returned the favor. Kathy, Brauny - cute, huh?
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If you submit to government authority (willfully and happily), in any way, then no I don't think so.
You are generalizing, while I was quite specific in my earlier posts responding to you, in which I stated that there are varying degrees of and reasons for submitting to authority. So I'll not repeat myself.
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This sound contradictory to me. I don't understand how a person can happily submit to an authority while being skeptical of said authority.
Sigh.
We all submit to some forms of authority. Yes, even you. Sometimes submission is painful. Sometimes it's irritating. Sometimes it's intolerable. But (and here's the really cool thing) SOMETIMES it's beneficial. Sometimes it's enjoyable. Sometimes the joy of doing something for the right reasons makes something emotionally satisfying (and therefore beneficial) even if the act itself is mundane, or bothersome, or even painful.
Maybe you can't relate, or simply disagree - I don't know. But that doesn't negate my experiences or opinions on the matter.
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I don't think the submissive in a traditional marriage is hoodwinked. I do think the leader and the follower in these marriage are of the same cloth, the same weaknesses and strengths, the same intellect, etc.
IF that's the case, is that a bad thing in your book?
Actually, though I do believe that it's less complicated if two people in a marriage share common values and goals and expectations.
That being said, I don't think that two people in a traditional marriage necessarily (or by virtue of their marriage style) share the SAME strengths and weaknesses. I can really only speak for my own marriage, but my husband and I have MANY different, and complementary strengths, and many different weaknesses as well. I mean, we ARE two separate individuals from different backgrounds.
I also think marriage is less complicated if the two people aren't markedly different when it comes to intellect. I'm not trying to brag, but I'm no intellectual slouch - and when I was dating, it was with some dismay that I often realized as I sat across from a date, "Darn. Nice guy - but he's too insecure about his intelligence for my taste."
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Other marriages have a religious bent, which I find very troubling. Comparing the husband with the perfect Christ is and the church, who would never question the Christ, with the wife is freaky.
Well, I hate to delve into theology and Church history, but the Church has a history of definitely "questioning" the authority of Christ -and yet His love remains steadfast.
As for the man being like "the perfect Christ," - sheeze, Christ is the IDEAL, the role model, something we strive for - even God doesn't expect us to be perfect!
If you don't understand those points, no wonder you find the example so freaky! Hell, I would too.
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Well, much of it doesn't make sense to me. I think I have to be honest about that. It's not that I'm entirely unfamiliar with the concepts (raised Christian), but we're very different people so it's to be expected.
True dat.
I have questioned my faith, God, the Church, myself, etc many times over my fifty years on this earth. I may question each one again before I die - who knows? But I've studied the tenets of my faith in great depth over the years and have reached conclusions which apparently differ from yours.
I have a feeling we are both in for some big surprises one day.
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It's a tall order.