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Since I enjoy the Cliff's Notes version of things, here's a pretty good video I found from Reason, which is a libertarian web site:
Charles Murray: Why America is Coming Apart Along Class Lines ...
Charles Murray, one of America's most influential social policy thinkers, has come out with a widely discussed new book called Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960-2010, which argues that Americans are splitting into two divergent classes, and that this growing divide could end American life as we have known it.
A self-described libertarian, Murray started his career as a liberal Democrat who spent six years in the Peace Corps and voted for Jimmy Carter in the 1976 presidential election. His political transformation came while he was researching his landmark 1984 book, Losing Ground: American Social Policy 1950-1980, which marshaled exhaustive evidence that American welfare programs were harming the very people they were supposed to be lifting out of poverty.
...
Murray has written more than 20 books, including What It Means to Be a Libertarian: A Personal Interpretation, and he's currently the W.H. Brady Scholar at the American Enterprise Institute .
Reason's Ronald Bailey sat down with Murray in March for a wide-ranging discussion of how his earlier work informs Coming Apart, why he remains libertarian in his outlook, and whether younger Americans face an relentlessly negative future.
Although there are most certainly "diamonds in the rough" among less-educated people, someone in an occupation where you get your hands dirty is also going to travel in different circles, probably have different habits and a different lifestyle. You also have manner of talk, dress and a whole host of other issues..
Furthermore, if you read Charles Murray's latest book, he also points out these cultural and lifestyle differences in "Coming Apart". The higher income level people and professionals, tend to buy the traditional values stuff at much higher levels than the working stiffs who largely seem to be adopting more secular values. It is something I have noticed a lot in real life as well.
Not a big fan of his, but he's right. It's ironic that conservatives mock universities and the higher educated when it is people with a college education who are living the traditional lifestyle espoused by conservatives like getting and staying married, not having children out of wedlock, etc.
[quote] Furthermore, if you read Charles Murray's latest book, he also points out these cultural and lifestyle differences in "Coming Apart". The higher income level people and professionals, tend to buy the traditional values stuff at much higher levels than the working stiffs who largely seem to be adopting more secular values. It is something I have noticed a lot in real life as well.[quote]
That has been a constant throughout history if you look at it. Most of what we see as traditional values for the longest were specifically reserved for the upper class and the social elite. An example is that chivalry for the longest was seen as something the the nobles practiced the peasants had no time for that and were more focused on working and making a living from day to day.
Thing is our society has the middle class which in still a pretty new social status in the grand scheme of things.
Though I have seen more people on the working end of society be more church going than those on the higher but that has been my observation.
Not a big fan of his, but he's right. It's ironic that conservatives mock universities and the higher educated when it is people with a college education who are living the traditional lifestyle espoused by conservatives like getting and staying married, not having children out of wedlock, etc.
FWIW, here's my take on things. The code of behavior I was raised with is old school, traditional European, Catholic. I was raised with that lifestyle, most of the people around me are like that and most importantly, most of the people around me live like that. Raised in that kind of environment, all this stuff comes natural to me. I call it "Cultural Christianity".
There is no question that the "born again" types grate on people's nerves and are a little bit more holier than thou than they should be. (I also understand how the Mitt Romney "goody two shoes" types annoy people too.) But at the end of the day, the "born agains" are part of a society that in many cases used to have what I have and lost it. Now they are trying to claw their way back to it, but if you do it enough it comes natural to you and eventually a lot of people tone themselves down.
One time I remember when I was a kid when we picked up my brother (younger) from the skating rink. He might have been 12 or 13 at the time. My dad couldn't believe all the teens smooching outside the skating rink. I still laugh at how he kept ranting and raving about it for weeks.
I don't know what your background is, but my point is that not everybody comes from this kind of environment. Some people do find this stuff later in life and it does help them center themselves. If they need to be "born again" and have to use their training wheels for awhile, people should cut them some slack.
Though living this way isn't for everyone, for most people it is a superior way to conducting your affairs.
Last edited by Beacon of Truth; 02-27-2013 at 03:03 PM..
That has been a constant throughout history if you look at it. Most of what we see as traditional values for the longest were specifically reserved for the upper class and the social elite. An example is that chivalry for the longest was seen as something the the nobles practiced the peasants had no time for that and were more focused on working and making a living from day to day.
Thing is our society has the middle class which in still a pretty new social status in the grand scheme of things.
Though I have seen more people on the working end of society be more church going than those on the higher but that has been my observation.
I do not agree with that at all, except maybe for the part about upper middle class mannerisms and niceties. But that is a minor part of traditional values. The major part has to do with family, sexual mores and just general decency to your fellow man.
If you go back to the Mariagostrey comments at the end of the "Celibacy" thread, you can see that sexual modesty was previously simply part of the lifestyle people led and it was mostly because most people didn't have a huge margin of error financially if they screwed their lives up. This was normal for both Christians and Muslims at most levels of the social scale except for royals and the wealthiest members of society who could dally in whatever behaviors they wanted (they had enough money), and those who were a part of what was the bottom of humanity's barrrel (nothing really to lose).
I have read enough on the subject and am convinced that what we are living today in America has nothing to do with either Christian culture or it's evolution. What pervades society today is essentially cultural Marxism which in my opinion is secular Jewish culture people have unwittingly adopted.
Last edited by Beacon of Truth; 02-27-2013 at 03:19 PM..
I do not agree with that at all, except maybe for the part about upper middle class mannerisms and niceties. But that is a minor part of traditional values. The major part has to do with family, sexual mores and just general decency to your fellow man.
If you go back to the Mariagostrey comments at the end of the "Celibacy" thread, you can see that sexual modesty was previously simply part of the lifestyle people led and it was mostly because most people didn't have a huge margin of error financially if they screwed their lives up. This was normal for both Christians and Muslims at most levels of the social scale except for royals and the wealthiest members of society who could dally in whatever behaviors they wanted (they had enough money), and those who were a part of what was the bottom of humanity's barrrel (nothing really to lose).
I have read enough on the subject and am convinced that what we are living today in America has nothing to do with either Christian culture or it's evolution. What pervades society today is essentially cultural Marxism which in reality is secular Jewish culture people have unwittingly adopted.
Well I did not know that is what you meant on a broad level and was just addresses the mannerism and niceties.
I wasn't sure what specific era you were speaking of or what culture you were bringing up. Attitude of people on that level is a little too narrow. You have to take into account marriages were more of transactions than for love in the past which could why that attitude existed.
For your last paragraph the founding fathers of america were influenced by the Renaissance and many things so America has a very complex cultural evolution that can't be pin pointed to one source.
Some people may think they are more likely to be relatable to someone with a college degree, as they have shared a similar social and intellectual experience. College is not only about job/career prerequisites, but a means to acquire intellectual and social standing, thought NOT the only means. Many achieve intellectualism/success through complete self-study and some college experiences may actually impair intellectualism/achievement potential IMO.
I'm happily married but if I were dating again, I doubt I'd even ask about a person's college background (I'm really not that interested in it anymore), though when I was in my late teens/early 20's this was a frequent topic of conversation as I had lived so little and had bought into common beliefs of what it takes to be intellectual/successful and it was superficially important to me then. Now I know better.
Well I did not know that is what you meant on a broad level and was just addresses the mannerism and niceties.
I wasn't sure what specific era you were speaking of or what culture you were bringing up. Attitude of people on that level is a little too narrow. You have to take into account marriages were more of transactions than for love in the past which could why that attitude existed.
For your last paragraph the founding fathers of america were influenced by the Renaissance and many things so America has a very complex cultural evolution that can't be pin pointed to one source.
I think up until 1960, American culture was largely Protestant Christian culture. It was reserved and more modest for the most part than it is today. Since I brought Charles Murray into the discussion, one of my favorite articles of his appeared in The Wall Street Journal called "Prole Models". This article is about 10 years old and he calls some of the things I am talking about "the proletarianization of the dominant minority."
The article was published in 2001 and it is a quick and worthwhile read.
EDIT to add passage for people who don't click the link:
Respectfulness toward, and imitation of, underclass behavior extend to the other classic signals that used to distinguish nice people from riff-raff. Appearance? The hooker look in fashion, tattoos, and body piercing is the obvious evidence ... No one in the public eye calls any kind of dress "cheap" or "sleazy" any more.
Sexual behavior? As late as 1960, sleeping with one's boyfriend was still a lower-class thing to do. Except in a few sophisticated circles, a woman of the elites did it furtively, and usually with the person she expected to marry. Behavior that is now considered absolutely normal was considered sluttish in 1960.
Family? The divorce rate in 1960 was only a notch higher than it had been in the first recorded figures from 1920. It happened among members of the dominant minority, but rarely and with extreme reluctance. As for living together without being married and having babies without marrying the father, language alone conveys their change in status over the years. People used to shack up; now they cohabit. The woman used to have a bastard, then an illegitimate child; now she has a nonmarital birth.
Last edited by Beacon of Truth; 02-27-2013 at 04:17 PM..
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