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Old 12-03-2012, 08:08 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
8,711 posts, read 11,734,327 times
Reputation: 7604

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Quote:
Originally Posted by burgler09 View Post
tired of homework so ill start a thread.

I constantly see PUA getting a hard time on these messageboards here and it surprises me. I think it gets a bad rep because a lot of the people that follow it can be dbags. If you actually read into it though, it's actually a really good thing for people and can really help. If you look into it, or read about it.. it isn't about picking up women and leaving them. They are saying to do the same exact thing that everyone on these messageboards are saying.

At the core, they say you have to be comfortable in your own shoes, and never be afraid to approach any woman out there. They simply say, be the guy everyone wants to be around. If you're at a party, be the guy that people are interested to talk to. Be the guy making people laugh or having a good time around you. Have things about yourself that you're proud of and not be afraid to talk about it. Another thing, the main motto of PUA is that the girl should love being around you. They say most relationships don't last... but after every relationship.. you should leave the girl feeling better about herself and her way of life.

There's nothing about treating women poorly, it is actually the opposite. If you're having problems with women or attracting quality women.. the PUA stuff is actually a good and interesting read.

Just my opinion, but hey.. it helped me out.
It's a bunch of bulk sayings and fake feelings, a game, to try and get as many women as possible to say yes to the guy. PUA is essentially throwing darts in the dark and hoping something sticks to anyone, whoever as long as it sticks. Someone should invent something so men can know what it feels like to think some girl is actually genuine only to find out she's herding you like cattle.

 
Old 12-03-2012, 10:34 PM
 
1,342 posts, read 2,162,506 times
Reputation: 1037
Quote:
Originally Posted by burgler09 View Post
Hahahah, yeah those terms are really lame, but I think they are mainly for people who don't understand social interactions whatsoever.

One problem with some of that PUA stuff, is that people who don't really get social interactions that much try too hard to be someone they're not. They will try to put on one certain image or treat women bad because they think that's how you pick up women.
Be careful saying they're trying to be something they're not. A lot of this is in fact about becoming something they're not, and it's a good thing! This is true for anyone who's trying to live up to their full potential! Guys learning how to be good with women are no different than guys who want to get in shape, better their SAT scores, or whatever. When guys embark on the self-improvement process it means getting out of your comfort zone and doing things you normally wouldn't do on your own. People see guys doing this, get put off by it, but they miss the forest for the trees. Ultimately it's all about unlearning bad habits, learning new ones such as good communication skills, being able to read women's interest levels, and learning how to properly escalate things, and so on. At the end of the day it's about becoming the best possible version of yourself that you can become.


Here's an example of what I meant about missing the forest for the trees:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascension2012 View Post
PUA is based on some very solid principles, and it will certainly help a guy get laid, but the problem many have with it, that it exposes one track feminine mind and how easy it is to trick. It also doesnt really teach you anything about real male/female dynamics or social dynamics for that matter. Some of the theories, like Peacock theory for example, memorizing one liners, making up stories to sound as if you lead a more interesting lifestyle than your own, or even rehearsing openers, are entirely too cheesy and corny for me to ever bother, but if it helps some poor white knight get a little action, than more power to him.

What he's critiquing are the training tools & methods. These are the training wheels guys use to build confidence and gain experience. Eventually they're meant to be taken off.
 
Old 12-03-2012, 10:38 PM
 
1,342 posts, read 2,162,506 times
Reputation: 1037
Quote:
Originally Posted by BKSnook View Post
I respect your positive thoughts on PUA, but you're wrong.

There are boat loads of information on maintaining a healthy, balanced relationship. Topics on sex in a relationship to how to give your girlfriend the space she needs to maintain her own life, career, friends etc.

Learn about it some more before you make rash statements.
Bingo! The site Married Man Sex Life is all about long-term relationship game. Dave in Hawaii's site is pretty much the same.
 
Old 12-03-2012, 10:48 PM
 
8,779 posts, read 9,454,139 times
Reputation: 9548
there is nothing wrong with being one way or the other as long as you are being open to "why" and "what" you are this way for. misleading people is where the animosity comes from, not the actions you take "getting there"
 
Old 12-03-2012, 11:41 PM
 
Location: Central California
1,782 posts, read 2,223,675 times
Reputation: 1686
There are 2 kinds of guys when it comes to women and dating:

1) Guys who understand it
2) Guys who don't understand it

PUA is simply a way of turning a guy that doesn't understand it into a guy that does understand it.

What each guy does with that information is his own business.
 
Old 12-03-2012, 11:43 PM
 
Location: Central California
1,782 posts, read 2,223,675 times
Reputation: 1686
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nutz76 View Post
Be careful saying they're trying to be something they're not. A lot of this is in fact about becoming something they're not, and it's a good thing! This is true for anyone who's trying to live up to their full potential! Guys learning how to be good with women are no different than guys who want to get in shape, better their SAT scores, or whatever. When guys embark on the self-improvement process it means getting out of your comfort zone and doing things you normally wouldn't do on your own. People see guys doing this, get put off by it, but they miss the forest for the trees. Ultimately it's all about unlearning bad habits, learning new ones such as good communication skills, being able to read women's interest levels, and learning how to properly escalate things, and so on. At the end of the day it's about becoming the best possible version of yourself that you can become.


Here's an example of what I meant about missing the forest for the trees:




What he's critiquing are the training tools & methods. These are the training wheels guys use to build confidence and gain experience. Eventually they're meant to be taken off.
This is easily one of the most insightful posts I've ever seen on this site. Well done.
 
Old 12-04-2012, 12:01 AM
 
30,902 posts, read 33,008,032 times
Reputation: 26919
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainJack87 View Post

What each guy does with that information is his own business.
I wouldn't say it's only his business as it impacts someone else, sometimes in negative ways.

If I choose to smoke, that's my business. If I choose to smoke around other people, that's their business too.
 
Old 12-04-2012, 12:04 AM
 
Location: Central California
1,782 posts, read 2,223,675 times
Reputation: 1686
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
I wouldn't say it's only his business as it impacts someone else, sometimes in negative ways.

If I choose to smoke, that's my business. If I choose to smoke around other people, that's their business too.
LOL you make it sound as if the woman has no say in who she dates. If the guy uses game in a negative way, the girl still has to go along with it for it to work. It takes two to tango.

If you choose to smoke around other people, those people have the ability to leave. The same line of thinking applies here.
 
Old 12-04-2012, 12:05 AM
 
12,535 posts, read 15,204,354 times
Reputation: 29088
It teaches men to be manipulative and disingenuous, and that is never a good thing.
 
Old 12-04-2012, 12:32 AM
 
1,342 posts, read 2,162,506 times
Reputation: 1037
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilac110 View Post
It teaches men to be manipulative and disingenuous, and that is never a good thing.
Says you. Here's the core of what I teach, which is 100% free by the way and part of a 6 week course I give.

Course introduction
What is this class about? This class is not focused on how to get laid, or even how to get into a relationship. What this training will provide is a roadmap for developing social acuity, and confidence through experience and positive reinforcement. How you use the skills you learn here are entirely up to you, but they’ll transcend dating and relationships and can be applied to all aspects of your life.

This course is the culmination of over 7 years of experience and training in the “seduction community”, military mentoring & leadership training, public speaking, and my own personal life experience.
I found the community following my initiation of divorce in 2005 when I realized I didn’t know how to break the ice with women, something I never really learned how to do in the past because I had a really good “natural” wing who did all the pickup for the both of us. I basically just played wingman. As a result I never really developed approach skills of my own, but over the years I solved this problem for myself and will convey how to do this on your own by providing you a roadmap and the tools to develop the skills on your own.

Be Your Best Self
To quote Neil Strauss:

Quote:
The two biggest clichés of dating advice are: Just Be Yourself and Be Confident. That’s a load of bull****: You shouldn’t be yourself, you should be your best self. As for being confident, it’s impossible to just be confident because someone tells you to. This is impossible without success. Success breeds confidence. So you need to learn to have success... Here’s pickup broken down to its most basic formula: Be interesting and interested... be confident and competent.
The goal of this course is to improve your social skills as a whole and to develop your confidence with women. As you’ll eventually see for yourself, this will impact your life in ways you never expected.

What Drives Social Alliances?
In order to maximize your potential regarding social interactions it’s helpful to understand what’s going on under the surface. Knowing why something happens can greatly improve how something happens. For this reason I’d like to cover how social alliances are formed.

Social alliances are principally driven by three things:

· Propinquiety
· Mere-exposure
· Investment

Propinquity
Propinquity is what gives us our perceived value to others. In the context of this course it can be best thought of as a mixture of preselection and social proof. Another factor in all of this is the mere exposure effect, which is why having good logistics (in the sense of being around the women you desire) is so much better than merely cold approaching all the time.

Protip: Females tend to prefer males who have already been chosen by other females of their species. This is know as Preselection. When someone is perceived to have high value within a social setting, this is known as Social Proof.

Wikipedia’s entry on Propinquity:

Quote:
Propinquity refers to the physical or psychological proximity between people. Propinquity can mean physical proximity, a kinship between people, or a similarity in nature between things ("like-attracts-like"). Two people living on the same floor of a building, for example, have a higher propinquity than those living on different floors, just as two people with similar political beliefs possess a higher propinquity than those whose beliefs strongly differ.
How does this relate to the course? From wiki:

Quote:
The propinquity effect is the tendency for people to form friendships or romantic relationships with those whom they encounter often…
Mere-Exposure
Mere-exposure is when people like or prefer something simply because that’s what they’re familiar with. Coke has been using this in their advertising for years, whereas other brands aren’t so fortunate. While Pepsi sells itself as the best tastingb “choice of a new generation”, Coke can just run an advertisement with polar bears to remind people they’re still around.
From Wikipedia:

Quote:
The mere-exposure effect is a psychological phenomenon by which people tend to develop a preference for things merely because they are familiar with them.
As you can see, both are relevant psychological phenomenon to keep in mind when building social alignments.

Investment
Investment is somewhat like the Mere-Exposure effect, that the more you’re around someone the more invested in each other the two of you become. Granted this is assuming you are putting in equal effort in the interaction. The key thing you need to take away from this is that the person who is least invested will control the relationship. This is very much like it sounds: the person least invested will have the upper hand, so to speak.

If you can get a woman talking and sit back and coast by letting her talk and talk and talk, while yourself being minimally involved, she’ll be more invested than you are. Speaking from personal experience this is pretty great when it happens, as it is very empowering. What happens when someone invests is they want a return on that investment. When this happens socially people will subconsciously want you to give something in return. As such they’ll be more inclined to seek rapport with you and will begin the process of becoming attached in some fashion. Normally this is how friendships are built, but if you want to be more than friends then you’ll have to physically escalate things physically.

Once you start to see how investment levels work and you gain some experience, the investment levels in your relationships should be closer to even with you being just a little bit less invested than she is. For now I want you to focus on investing as little as possible until you’re on the verge of losing her interest in the interaction. Keep doing this for a few weeks/months until you get a feel of what’s “just right” for yourself. If you lose her interest then you know for next time you’ll need to give some more investment back. The reason I want you to do this is so you don’t over invest, which is very common for men who don’t have a lot of experience with women and relationships. What’s common when guys over invest is they risk coming across as needy at best, or clingy at worst. Again for the purpose of training you should look to keep your investment level a fair amount lower than those you are interacting with—at least for the time being. This trial and error process is what you’ll follow throughout the self-improvement process.

Social Attributes
When we interact with other human beings we invoke an assortment of different types of attributes that play a part of how we communicate. The key elements I want to focus on for this course are verbal, non-verbal, touch, and understanding the subtext each conveys overtly and subconsciously. It’s worth noting that these skills are practiced daily whether we realize it or not, and as such they’ll have an impact on virtually all interactions we have with other people. This is why when guys begin the self-improvement process of bettering themselves with women they soon realize they’re bettering their communication skills with everyone.

Verbal Communications
Verbal communication means your inflection, tone, cadence, and so on. What you say isn’t nearly as important as how you say it. Being comfortable talking to strangers and “holding court” takes time and practice.

My football coach had a saying, “perfect practice makes perfect”. If you practice sloppily then when it’s game time you’ll be sloppy because of the bad habits you’ll have formed. You’ve got to take the time to practice properly if you want to improve. This repetition is going to help you immensely in the long run. Just how women give off overt and/or subconscious cues, you’ll need to learn to master the signals you’re sending as well, both verbally and non-verbally.

Key things to remember:

· Slow down your overall speech
· Avoid filler words (eg. uh, um)
· Project your voice. This doesn’t mean shout, it means you should be heard over the average background noise of a casual environment.
· Pregnant pauses -- use them!
· Slowing down your speech AND lowering your voice can create an uncanny level of anticipation in your audience

Practice your ice-breaker/opener in the car or in front of a mirror by playing around with the above elements. Keep going over the verbal aspect testing new tonality, pacing, pauses, etc until you have it on autopilot. This way you’ll be able to focus your mental energies on what your body is doing.

Body Language
Non-verbal communications are largely comprised of eye contact, how we move, body positioning such as mirroring and matching head height, and how we carry ourselves in general. Non-verbal communications are said to have more of an impact in social interactions as they convey our true interests and comfort level, as well as playing a part in building comfort & intimacy.

The biggest problems I’ve witnessed are that people have an aversion to making good eye contact and are averse to touching each other. In other words they’re socialized to keep their hands to themselves and look at their feet. Good eye contact will add a level of seriousness and intimacy and give you a ton of alpha cred with women, and by a similar token men who go after what they want and aren’t apologetic about it tend to do better in life. Chalk this up to being bold. Granted there’s a good way and bad way of doing so, but that goes without saying.

By the way, without proper eye contact and touching you’re doing yourself a huge disservice by putting yourself at significant risk of being friend-zoned.

DRILL: An easy way to practice on your own is to force yourself to make eye contact when walking past people. Look at someone you’re passing as you walk in opposite directions at about 10-15’ away. Look at their eyes and try to note their eye color. Say hi or give them a head-nod and keep moving. After a while you’ll develop a feel for how much eye contact is too much or not enough, eventually getting it just right. Like much of what I’m teaching here, experience is the key. As a rule of thumb, until you find out what’s right for you, try to maintain eye contact for about 2-3 heartbeats.

Another common faux pas I’ve seen men do is “pecking”. This is where guys lean in when they speak. Honestly think back to times when you may have done this. Does those 4 inches you leaned into her personal space really make that big of a difference in how we’ll she’ll hear what you have to say? Probably not. And even if it did, your encroachment into her physical comfort zone probably distracted her anyway.

Get your hands out of your pockets! It sub-communicates nervousness and/or insecurity. If you’re not sure what to do with them, hook your thumbs in your belt or belt-loops and let your hands hang naturally. Doing so creates the “cowboy” pose, which has a subconscious cue of framing your crotch. It’s a fun trick I learned from NLP as it’ll draw their eyes and quite possibly get them thinking sexually. Alternatively, hook your thumbs in your back pockets so you’ll at least open up your body language and have your shoulders back somewhat. The main thing to remember is to keep your hands out of your pockets—you can’t touch them if your hands are hidden away.

As I touched on earlier, you want to mirror body language as best you can. If she’s not investing and is facing away, then you should not be facing her. If you do then you’re investing when she’s not and you’re starting down the path of being overly invested. As she starts to face you, then you can mirror her by turning slightly towards her as well. It should happen subtly over a few minutes when you’ll suddenly realize you’re squared off facing one another. When this happens you’ll see there’s a fair amount of comfort between the two of you.

Similarly to mirroring body language, you should also try to match head height. If she’s shorter then you could spread your legs and squat down a bit. If she’s sitting and you’re standing, you’ll want to squat down or sit down next to her (preferred).

If you refer back to propinquity and investment, this is exactly what’s happening when you mirror body language and match head height—you’re creating similarities between the two of you and are developing mutual investment.

Touch & Physical Escalation
As I stated earlier, when communicating with others, particularly in situations where you want things to become romantic, touch is critical. Physical escalation towards a sexual relationship starts from the moment you meet.

When you approach, a touch on the woman’s arm before you speak is an amazing tool for getting someone’s attention. 3 fingers on her forearm for just a moment to get her attention are all that’s needed. Another option is tapping her arm with the back of your hand. It’s non-threatening and breaks the physical contact barrier right from the start.

The goal of escalation is to close the physical gap between the two of you, and ultimately make her comfortable with increasing levels of intimacy.

Keep It Simple
Many people spend a lot of time focusing on gambits, tricks of the trade, and trying to find the perfect opener or gambit, a magic bullet if you will. Unfortunately there is no magic bullet that will solve anyone’s problems. On the other hand, most of what’s classically defined as “Game” is unnecessary. What matters most, probably 80-90% of getting the girl, job, or anything else you desire that will require some modicum of social savvy, is that approaching and working through the awkward phase is what matters most. Of the other 10-20%, that’s where “Game” comes into play. Most guys actually have the social skills necessary to find some level of success, but they need to learn to stop putting their foot in their mouth and recognize when it’s time to pull the trigger and make a move. Most men these days seem to be overly sensitive and feminized and afraid of offending or otherwise pissing off women. You’ve got to let go of this fear and understand that being bold (in the right way) is exactly what a lot of you are missing. Keep in mind that there is a right way and a wrong way of doing so, and we will cover more of this in later sessions. For now I want you to approach, stay, and see what happens.

Protip: When going out at night limit your alcohol consumption. Keep in mind that you’re practicing social skills, learning how to read people’s social cues, and so on. Any time you’re in training you need to keep your focus sharp. Booze will cause you to lose focus and can really mess with your perception and powers of observation, which will hamstring your progress.

Homework:

1. Strive for 30 minutes of dedicated training time every day. That’s not walking around talking with your buddies and approaching once or twice. I’m talking about 30 minutes of combined time interacting with your target audience who aren’t trying to sell you something, and are not related to you. That could be 30 1-minute interactions, a single 30-minute interaction, or any combination thereof. I don’t care how you break it down, but your goal is for that 30 minute total every day.
2. Think of a few short and long-term goals relating to this course that you would like to achieve.
3. What qualities and characteristics do you want in the women you meet?
4. What kind of relationships do you even want? One night stands, find the person of your dreams to settle down with, just making friends in general, or something else entirely?
5. Choose 3 openers, aka ice-breakers, and practice them 10 minutes a day in front of a mirror, or by recording yourself and reviewing the recording. Alternatively, you can practice reciting them in the car.
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