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A woman who turns 35 and decides to be with a "nice guy" after only going for "bad boys" in her 20's is no better choice at 35 than she was at 25. Both ages of this woman would be a bad choice for any guy who wants a healthy relationship (which one would assume a nice guy would want), so the woman shouldn't even be on their radar in the first place.
I keep reading this and reading this and reading this...but like Dew, have never personally witnessed it.
I HAVE witnessed young people in general wanting less in terms of "long-term quality" and more in terms of excitement, fun and spring break-esque stuff. That isn't dependent upon gender and it doesn't mean a "bad boy" necessarily, just a difference in maturity level between college age and later on...which is normal. What would be abnormal would be if people didn't act at least roughly age-appropriately, and mature over time. Young people are trying to learn and learning involves exploration and trying out new and different things. Of course the average 19-year-old isn't stimulated by investigating 401K possibilities while catching a little CNN, v. running all around the place with friends. S/he's young! Actually still a child, basically (though not legally). Kids explore, they play, they learn. They don't sit silently and stoically around the place.
This whole mystique of women wanting to be tossed around by criminals or something, then getting exhausted, used up and at midnight on their 35th birthday, suddenly becoming grateful and going to the "nice guys they rejected before" with their tail between their legs? Just...never saw it. Then again, I never hung around in trailer trash-esque circles where women did go for literally "bad" men...not young, immature men as most people are at very young ages, but literally bad men. Abusive or drug addiction and abuse or what-have-you...whatever would constitute a "bad man." That sounds very TLC or Jerry Springer to me and just not something I have personal experience with. Maybe it really does at least partially depend upon whom one hangs around with and what kind of friends one attracts...I don't know.
And no, such a woman probably wouldn't be a good choice...someone who wants/needs to be abused likely has serious, very, very deep emotional issues and is definitely not the norm, but rather, someone who needs help and a lot of it.
I think the way some men handle this, especially the threat that women will get theirs at some age when their "market value" drops, is a crappy way to talk to or about people. I also think the crappy comments and the overall nasty tone these men resort to overshadows an understandable and genuine source of pain for some men.
When a woman loses a lot of weight and gets more attention from men, and especially when the attention is from men or types of men who wouldn't look twice at her or even treated her harshly when she was heavier, we tend to understand her conflicted feelings about that attention. Of course wise people would advise her to work through those feelings and to not let them interfere with her current happiness, but we'd probably acknowledge that her earlier plight did kind of suck. We'd also respect her anger at that earlier treatment, while recommending that she move past it.
Some men do outgrow some stereotypical awkwardness, mostly in terms of their personality but that often leads to improvements in their appearance as they get more comfortable with themselves and make better style choices and generally show that they care more about the impression they make. I think it makes sense that those men (I was one) are a little conflicted the way the women in the above example are.
I was a really awkward adolescent, and to give myself a shot at social success I decided to get fat for a decade or so . I got my physical and general self together in my early 20s, at least compared to those earlier fat and awkward years. A girl then woman I grew up with saw me a few years after we both had moved away from our childhood homes, and she told her mother who then told my mother that she couldn't believe I was the same person, in terms of appearance and demeanor. Apparently she then "jokingly" said she should have paid more attention to me when I was crushing on her (I'm sure it was really obvious ) and my how I've changed since then. I smiled at my mom and said, "well she's changed too, and lets just say I'm over my crush."
As indirect as that was it felt good saying that, both because I was in a so much better place, but just a tiny bit because she wasn't. I know, I'm terrible.
I think Dewdroplet is saying that yes, some men might not be on her radar at 25, but be on her radar at 35, for reasons that she feels are more about her tastes changing than her becoming desperate. I think she's right, from her perspective. And her perspective is the only one she needs to be concerned with, so that's not meant as a dig.
I don't know, but I suspect that Dewdroplet believes that the men who weren't on her radar at 25, were on some women's radar, and they dated and had fun like she did when younger. Sometimes that's not the case. From the perspective of a man who at 20 or 25 lived inside a really effective radar jamming device and who seldom or never dated, her noticing him now might lead to some conflicted feelings. I'm not saying it's noble or even self interested to hang on to the negative part of those conflicted feelings, but I am saying the negative part may be there, and understandably so.
I really was a different person between 20 and say 27. For some men though, the change in how they're perceived is mostly from the woman's point of view. I think it's sort of a slap in the face of some men's egos to be seen as the stable, supportive guy who is good for a long term relationship when a woman is ready for that, as contrasted with the fun, exciting guy who she used to hang out with.
I'm not saying that justifies him being an ass about how he's perceived, and I'm not saying that a woman is wrong to want something at one stage of her life, and want something else later. I'm just
saying that if the man was always interested in that woman or in a woman like her but was unable to spark her interest, or perhaps unable to spark any woman's interest, to later be seen as attractive mainly because his then less than exciting traits now have value could be a bit hurtful. Isn't it a bit like her saying to that man who she didn't care for before that she's had enough fun and she's ready to get serious about life, so now you look pretty good? I know it does him no good to think that way, but it's not an irrational way to see things.
I think you and I were in the same Bermuda Triangle at some point (the bolded bit). I like that analogy.
I am agreeing with both of you... but you are both making different points.
I actually just added an edit to clarify what I was trying to say. I agree with both you and Dew, but you are talking about different things. You are talking about a man changing and then being attractive to women that were never attracted to him before. I get this, I am in that same boat now actually.
But what she's arguing against is the idea that a man is exactly the same "nice guy" from his 20s into his 30s and now he's suddenly attractive to women (that women have changed). In some cases, yeah, some women"grow up" from what they were in their 20s. But what she's saying that some women didn't change and that they've always liked nice men. What happen is the men changed in other ways and did in such a way that they became more attractive. In some cases maybe they got over shyness or insecurity some guys improved their physical appearance, etc.
I keep reading this and reading this and reading this...but like Dew, have never personally witnessed it.
I HAVE witnessed young people in general wanting less in terms of "long-term quality" and more in terms of excitement, fun and spring break-esque stuff. That isn't dependent upon gender and it doesn't mean a "bad boy" necessarily, just a difference in maturity level between college age and later on...which is normal. What would be abnormal would be if people didn't act at least roughly age-appropriately, and mature over time.
This whole mystique of women wanting to be tossed around by criminals or something, then getting exhausted, used up and at midnight on their 35th birthday, suddenly becoming grateful and going to the "nice guys they rejected before" with their tail between their legs? Just...never saw it. Then again, I never hung around in trailer trash-esque circles where women did go for literally "bad" men...not young, immature men as most people are at very young ages, but literally bad men. Abusive or drug addiction and abuse or what-have-you...whatever would constitute a "bad man." That sounds very TLC or Jerry Springer to me and just not something I have personal experience with. Maybe it really does at least partially depend upon whom one hangs around with and what kind of friends one attracts...I don't know.
And no, such a woman probably wouldn't be a good choice...someone who wants/needs to be abused likely has serious, very, very deep emotional issues and is definitely not the norm, but rather, someone who needs help and a lot of it.
In my experience dating woman around 35 (I am that age now), they tend to be on the defensive from being in a previous relationship/marriage. The vast majority have children. The minority are putting career as they're top priority and make that clear.
For what they're looking for, they state "no cheaters", "no liars", etc (they state it like that also with the attitude projecting).. So I guess that's looking for a "nice" guy. Unfortunately they with their defensive attitude don't come across as very "nice" but instead standoffish.
Other single woman of this age that generally have children aren't interested in dating at all. There was a very pretty lady I was courting that ending up telling me this. Than of course those are those women that are 35, single, no children, never married etc looking for a relationship that are not very attractive.
Generally the later group has let themselves go entirely and weigh about twice as much as i do. I just had a lady like this message me, and I gave her the courtesy of a reply thanking her for messaging but let her know there was no attraction for me wishing her the best. I'm a pretty nice guy. Of course i have bad days like everyone else.
People can identify "nice" as passive and weak. Neither qualities are attractive to a woman.
This thread has been very useful as I don't intend to describe myself as "nice". Never did that anyways.
It's interesting that the dates I have been on with woman i've always been "nice"/kind/respectful, etc.. nothing has escalated into something more..
So there is something more than being "nice" they were looking for that I didn't have. Otherwise there would have been a second date. I'm at a loss of what that is though.
And it might have nothing to do with being nice. It might just be there is something else that leads to things not going any further. Who knows what that is. I've been nice, kind, respectful on all my dates too and not all of them panned out. Most didn't. But a few did. And that's the thing, dating is a lot of trial and error before success. A lot. It takes patience and persistence to finally find someone you like and who likes you enough back to keep dating.
It's interesting that the dates I have been on with woman i've always been "nice"/kind/respectful, etc.. nothing has escalated into something more..
This probably says more about the kind of woman you are attracted to, rather than the specific characteristic of being kind/nice/respectful being a romance killer. More than likely, the women you are attracted to have some kind of issue that prevents them from allowing a romantic interest to treat them nicely. At the same time, you seem to be OK with escalating things with a woman who is OK with you not treating her in a kind and respectful manner.
Personally, I wouldn't have any interest in a woman who doesn't want a guy who is kind and respectful towards her, just as I have zero attraction to women who don't act in kind and respectful ways towards me. Hence, all of my relationships have entailed mutual kindness, respect and being "nice" to each other from the beginning.
I think you and I were in the same Bermuda Triangle at some point (the bolded bit). I like that analogy.
I am agreeing with both of you... but you are both making different points.
I actually just added an edit to clarify what I was trying to say. I agree with both you and Dew, but you are talking about different things. You are talking about a man changing and then being attractive to women that were never attracted to him before. I get this, I am in that same boat now actually.
But what she's arguing against is the idea that a man is exactly the same "nice guy" from his 20s into his 30s and now he's suddenly attractive to women (that women have changed). In some cases, yeah, some women"grow up" from what they were in their 20s. But what she's saying that some women didn't change and that they've always liked nice men. What happen is the men changed in other ways and did in such a way that they became more attractive. In some cases maybe they got over shyness or insecurity some guys improved their physical appearance, etc.
It doesn't have to deal with being a "nice guy" or a "nice gal". People's priorities change from teenager, to young adult, to adult, to middle aged, and to senior age. We're constantly evolving and what we wanted in our 20s is not what we wanted in our 30s. It's not that the nice person in their 20s is getting tossed aside for the "more dangerous and elusive" person, but that more elusive person provides something that person in their 20s wants. If they're not wanting more of a settled down and routine life then why press them to settle for such.
The "nice guy" move is so popular for late 20s and early 30s, because men and women have a tendency to know what they want in their late 20s and early 30s. College has been completed and career path race has slowed down a bit. You're looking for someone to compliment you, because your life has become more routine. You're no longer hitting happy hour twice a week and planning your next road trip while on a current road trip. You're working an 8-5, hitting the gym from 5-7, cooking dinner, doing household chores, and then getting ready for bed.
You're just more in a routine and have less time available for spontaneous adventures. Adulthood is a lot of routine for most people.
And it might have nothing to do with being nice. It might just be there is something else that leads to things not going any further. Who knows what that is. I've been nice, kind, respectful on all my dates too and not all of them panned out. Most didn't. But a few did. And that's the thing, dating is a lot of trial and error before success. A lot. It takes patience and persistence to finally find someone you like and who likes you enough back to keep dating.
It's interesting. The one girl I dated was distraught regarding a recent boyfriend that broke up with her. Very pretty lady. Well according to her the guy basically turned his back on her with another woman and told her to get lost. So she was tearing up at the table as we sat for dinner and she talked about it.
The interesting this is she was so broken up about what I'd identify as a complete jerk. I've never said that type of thing to anyone let alone someone I've been close with. Yet this lady was still pining over her loss of this guy.
This is the competition and I didn't get a second date? Makes me wonder..
I agree patience and persistence is necessary, but with this type of thing it's easy to get discouraged.
I paid for the meal and was later ghosted by this lady after offering a date to play some music together (she said she likes to sing and I play guitar.).. so I'm not that boring.
Anyways it is what it is. I don't understand the ghosting thing though and I certainly don't think that's a very "nice" thing to do to somebody..
This probably says more about the kind of woman you are attracted to, rather than the specific characteristic of being kind/nice/respectful being a romance killer. More than likely, the women you are attracted to have some kind of issue that prevents them from allowing a romantic interest to treat them nicely. At the same time, you seem to be OK with escalating things with a woman who is OK with you not treating her in a kind and respectful manner.
Personally, I wouldn't have any interest in a woman who doesn't want a guy who is kind and respectful towards her, just as I have zero attraction to women who don't act in kind and respectful ways towards me. Hence, all of my relationships have entailed mutual kindness, respect and being "nice" to each other from the beginning.
See how that works? Like attracts like.
Just A Guy, right now my "attraction" is basically an eligible women not over 50yo that has not let themselves entirely go in life.
Truly my standards are not set that high believe me.
I have no idea what you're talking about with the concept that I'm somehow ok with escalating things with a woman that is ok with me not treating her nice. Not sure where you got that one and that's not an accurate representation of me at all.
It's interesting. The one girl I dated was distraught regarding a recent boyfriend that broke up with her. Very pretty lady. Well according to her the guy basically turned his back on her with another woman and told her to get lost. So she was tearing up at the table as we sat for dinner and she talked about it.
The interesting this is she was so broken up about what I'd identify as a complete jerk. I've never said that type of thing to anyone let alone someone I've been close with. Yet this lady was still pining over her loss of this guy.
This is the competition and I didn't get a second date? Makes me wonder..
I agree patience and persistence is necessary, but with this type of thing it's easy to get discouraged.
I paid for the meal and was later ghosted by this lady after offering a date to play some music together (she said she likes to sing and I play guitar.).. so I'm not that boring.
Anyways it is what it is. I don't understand the ghosting thing though and I certainly don't think that's a very "nice" thing to do to somebody..
1- People don't get over a relationship "just like that", no matter what the other person did at the end.
2- The fact that you would want a second date with a woman that is still not emotionally over her ex points to the fact that you either are specifically looking for women who are not available, are desperate enough to go for pretty much anything, or don't have enough experience to know that you should be screening women out based on criteria like this.
It doesn't sound like being a "nice guy" is your problem. It sounds like being a desperate nice guy is the issue here. I think you would have much more luck if you became the principled, assertive, nice guy who has personal integrity and decent standards.
Last edited by Just A Guy; 04-08-2016 at 11:04 AM..
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. I got my physical and general self together in my early 20s, at least compared to those earlier fat and awkward years. A girl then woman I grew up with saw me a few years after we both had moved away from our childhood homes, and she told her mother who then told my mother that she couldn't believe I was the same person, in terms of appearance and demeanor. Apparently she then "jokingly" said she should have paid more attention to me when I was crushing on her (I'm sure it was really obvious 
) and my how I've changed since then. I smiled at my mom and said, "well she's changed too, and lets just say I'm over my crush." 
