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Bottom line: "Be yourself, don't change who you are for someone else" is not good advice if you're unattractive and uninteresting.
Edit: I guess I'll take a stab at commentary as well as comedy. It makes me wonder if the whole "Nice Guy" trend got started with women doing as you describe...brushing off unattractive guys as "nice." Being told that they're nice as a platitude while being rejected becomes their romantic identity..."I'm a nice guy, I was doing everything right, and I got rejected anyways." That amps up the resentment and hostility after a time..."What's wrong with you, then?!" It did/does for me, but my resentment and hostility doesn't go outwards at women, it goes inwards..."What's wrong with me, then?!"
The problem is that it will eventually turn outward, and then you'll be a Nice Guy who "did everything right.." but ...
So if women would only say, "I'm sorry, I can't go out with you because you're unattractive and uninteresting" instead, these men wouldn't be resentful and hostile?
Stop making MGTOW and Red Pill women's fault. It isn't women's fault that they shy away from uncomfortable, unattractive, angry, or whatever men. Yet it's clear that no matter how we say no, we're going to be blamed...just because nobody likes to hear no.
So what's the solution? We should ignore obvious "run!" feelings/signs and let some stranger into our bodies, because otherwise, it will be all out fault men form anger societies in the internet?
Those movements are not the fault of women, and those men need to grow up.
I did not imply that saying "You're a nice guy, but no" is the greater of any evils, nor did I imply that doing otherwise would cure anything. Don't twist my position into supporting something I did not say.
My hypothesis is not about fault. It's about cause and effect. Cause: I've been all but universally rejected by women my entire life. This is despite being told "Don't worry, there's someone out there for you!" by many, many people, several of whom I was romantically interested in. Effect: I built up massive hostility and resentment towards myself for many, many years. Insight: I understand how such hostility and resentment can build, and others might direct it externally (horribly, and evilly) rather than internally. Hypothesis: Romantic "Nice Guy Syndrome" could stem from the cognitive dissonance of being repeatedly told "You're such a nice guy!" while also being rejected, without having any successful episodes to stand on or build on.
I get it. There have been many horrible things that have been said and done to women by men. I'm sure that you and most of the other women on these boards have your own stories to tell. I have close friends and family with horrible stories of their own. I'm a physically imposing man, so I don't know first-hand the sheer physical terror of being approached by someone twice my size and strength, much less wondering if something I'm inevitably going to say (rejection) will set him off against me. I think it's utterly horrible and evil that such things happen.
Now. If you'll take a walk in my shoes. Imagine you're 33 again. Now erase every instance of romantic intimacy from your life up to that point. Physical, emotional, sexual. Imagine every person you were romantically involved with to up to that point had rejected you instead. How would you feel about yourself? How many times could you be told the same things by your support network before you wondered, deep down, if the problem was you? Or even, them? I'm not saying you'd lash out violently at men. I'm asking how you'd feel about yourself if that had been your experience.
The problem is that it will eventually turn outward, and then you'll be a Nice Guy who "did everything right.." but ...
The resentment and hostility are in the past now, and they never turned outward. I am making major changes to all aspects of my life. I was tired of not liking the man I saw in the mirror. A big part of my reason for making these changes has been to increase my attractiveness. But a major psychological hurdle I've had to grapple with is "What if it's still not enough for women to want me?" To which I've rationalized: I'll still be better off than I was. I'll still like the man in the mirror better than I did.
To date, it still hasn't been enough for women to want me. But I'm still better off than I was. That's been enough for me to make peace with my fears, even if I have to fight them regularly.
I did not imply that saying "You're a nice guy, but no" is the greater of any evils, nor did I imply that doing otherwise would cure anything. Don't twist my position into supporting something I did not say.
My hypothesis is not about fault. It's about cause and effect. Cause: I've been all but universally rejected by women my entire life. This is despite being told "Don't worry, there's someone out there for you!" by many, many people, several of whom I was romantically interested in. Effect: I built up massive hostility and resentment towards myself for many, many years. Insight: I understand how such hostility and resentment can build, and others might direct it externally (horribly, and evilly) rather than internally. Hypothesis: Romantic "Nice Guy Syndrome" could stem from the cognitive dissonance of being repeatedly told "You're such a nice guy!" while also being rejected, without having any successful episodes to stand on or build on.
I get it. There have been many horrible things that have been said and done to women by men. I'm sure that you and most of the other women on these boards have your own stories to tell. I have close friends and family with horrible stories of their own. I'm a physically imposing man, so I don't know first-hand the sheer physical terror of being approached by someone twice my size and strength, much less wondering if something I'm inevitably going to say (rejection) will set him off against me. I think it's utterly horrible and evil that such things happen.
Now. If you'll take a walk in my shoes. Imagine you're 33 again. Now erase every instance of romantic intimacy from your life up to that point. Physical, emotional, sexual. Imagine every person you were romantically involved with to up to that point had rejected you instead. How would you feel about yourself? How many times could you be told the same things by your support network before you wondered, deep down, if the problem was you? Or even, them? I'm not saying you'd lash out violently at men. I'm asking how you'd feel about yourself if that had been your experience.
I was going to say most people couldn't imagine what that's like but it seems to me they don't want to imagine.
Now. If you'll take a walk in my shoes. Imagine you're 33 again. Now erase every instance of romantic intimacy from your life up to that point. Physical, emotional, sexual. Imagine every person you were romantically involved with to up to that point had rejected you instead. How would you feel about yourself? How many times could you be told the same things by your support network before you wondered, deep down, if the problem was you? Or even, them? I'm not saying you'd lash out violently at men. I'm asking how you'd feel about yourself if that had been your experience.
I'm 35, and my romantic success was never that great. So no imagining necessary. And yet somehow, I'd find it less insulting to be rejected all my life (in which case, nothing wrong with an annual trip to Nevada; it's better than kvetching on incel sites), than to be constantly rejected when I'm young, only to have a woman suddenly show interest in settling down (not sex) with me when both me and her are older. The former is mere lack of attractiveness. The latter is someone wanting to have their cake and eat it too, at my expense. Well, if so, I'm not enabling it. Just like women "aren't feeling it" with stable providers.
Last edited by MillennialUrbanist; 11-13-2018 at 10:43 PM..
Yes. They exist and grow because of entitlement, and fury at not automatically getting what one wants, even if that's a human being's body.
What you speak of is not why these movements exist but you're entitled to believe what you want. I'm pretty sure the majority of mgtows want nothing to do with women.
But I'm still better off than I was. That's been enough for me to make peace with my fears, even if I have to fight them regularly.
That's good. That's awesome, actually.
And I should have used the universal "you" and not you, personally, in response to your query about Nice Guys.
Because even with a positive attitude, milestones can do weird things to your psyche. It happens to women, too. You can be going along fine, but when you (the universal "you") hit one of those age milestones, like 35 or 40, or a career milestone or an "I thought I'd be doing this by now ..." moment, it gets more difficult to buoy yourself through the low times. And that's when the resentment turns outward.
And that moment doesn't have to be some kind of tragic national newsworthy interaction; it can just be an invisible wall that's built up, but it's the result of thinking of yourself in terms of how other people react to or experience you instead of in terms of you enjoying who you are.
Many of us have the idea that looking a certain way or acting a certain way will protect us from pain or rejection, but it won't. We will ALWAYS be judged.
Trying to dance around to figure out "the formula" or the moves in the game or whatever metaphor applies doesn't shield you from that pain. It only makes you less of who you are, which is the only real thing you have to offer anyone.
What you speak of is not why these movements exist but you're entitled to believe what you want. I'm pretty sure the majority of mgtows want nothing to do with women.
Well, not anymore ...
But don't kid yourself. Every bit of that movement is framed in the context of women.
What you speak of is not why these movements exist but you're entitled to believe what you want. I'm pretty sure the majority of mgtows want nothing to do with women.
There are levels to it. Some simply avoid marriage, but allow cohabitation. Others avoid all romantic relationships, even short-term, and associate with women strictly as colleagues or friends. Others eschew all interactions with any women who aren't in their family.
OK, enough MGTOW talk. I like this thread, and I don't want it to get locked. How 'bout them Bears?
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