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I think the divorce rate in Canada is lower because people hate freezing alone in their beds for 9 months of the year, but that's just a hunch.
Seriously, though, I don't know how many Canadians you know, but the ones I know are not laid back. Maybe about sex, but not about life in general. Most of my buddies are actually quite high-strung about things like money and their careers.
As for that big list of divorce statistics, you couldn't pay me enough to live in one of those "low divorce" countries. Those are countries where women are treated like chattel, men are hung up on machismo, there are double-standards about sexuality, there is a lot of religious influence, or affairs are an accepted part of marriage (usually for the man). I'm divorced, and glad of it. It's far better to get out of an unhappy marriage than to live a miserable life just for the sake of staying together.
LOL... Canada and U.S. have great variance in "laid-back attitudes" between areas, north and south, city and country, east coast and west coast, Native American/Inuit areas, etc.... I mean, compare NYC to Honolulu.... Not much compares to NYC in attitude though.
But I don't see a huge difference in "laid-back attitude" of residents between neighboring states/provinces (e.g. Northern Minnesota vs. Winnepeg, or Seattle vs. Vancouver or Maine vs. NB). Quebec French attitude though, that's different...
I'm always on the lookout for big differences in attitudes between Americans and Canadians, since I married one, but I find few. He is very laid-back though - but he's only 1 example and statistically insignificant. I have also inquired about the "sexuality" difference... think maybe it would explain some of his weird behaviours - kidding!
One thing that stood out was that my hubby and his friends would go to strip clubs in Canada when they were H.S. teens - he said it was a common thing to do. I think this may be a rarer occurence in the U.S., but I could be wrong. There also seem to be more out-in-the-open sex shops in Canada. I know this because I am covering my chidrens' eyes when we leave an ice cream shop (in a nice area), only to walk past the next door sex shop that has vibrators and sex toys in the window. They are eating their ice cream asking, "Mommy, what's that?"
Another difference between my hubby and me is that he suddenly takes on a strong Canadian accent as soon as we cross the border, which is weird but cute.
LOL... Canada and U.S. have great variance in "laid-back attitudes" between areas, north and south, city and country, east coast and west coast, Native American/Inuit areas, etc.... I mean, compare NYC to Honolulu.... Not much compares to NYC in attitude though.
But I don't see a huge difference in "laid-back attitude" of residents between neighboring states/provinces (e.g. Northern Minnesota vs. Winnepeg, or Seattle vs. Vancouver or Maine vs. NB). Quebec French attitude though, that's different...
I'm always on the lookout for big differences in attitudes between Americans and Canadians, since I married one, but I find few. He is very laid-back though - but he's only 1 example and statistically insignificant. I have also inquired about the "sexuality" difference... think maybe it would explain some of his weird behaviours - kidding!
One thing that stood out was that my hubby and his friends would go to strip clubs in Canada when they were H.S. teens - he said it was a common thing to do. I think this may be a rarer occurence in the U.S., but I could be wrong. There also seem to be more out-in-the-open sex shops in Canada. I know this because I am covering my chidrens' eyes when we leave an ice cream shop (in a nice area), only to walk past the next door sex shop that has vibrators and sex toys in the window. They are eating their ice cream asking, "Mommy, what's that?"
Another difference between my hubby and me is that he suddenly takes on a strong Canadian accent as soon as we cross the border, which is weird but cute.
Anyhow, you know I adore Canadians!
I think the attitude of French Canadians is awesome. They really don't care for English Canadians and ignore them. I like that but they were very nice to me in my travels Montreal and the women are "friendly".
Arabs have nothing in commons with Bosnians, except the religion that is shared with vast majority of one constituent ethnic group in Bosnia (Bosniaks).
I don't really know what to believe anymore, if you want to know the truth. I know I was raised a certain way by my "Catholic" parents (I always say Catholic because people are confused by what Orthodox means; most people think it's Jewish) and the way I was raised is consistent with what "Mariagostrey" wrote in these several posts on Pages 12 and 13.
What you tell me about Bosnian mores, is the same thing traditionally that people accepted in Macedonia, Serbia, Greece and Southern Italy. I can't speak as to the rest. Maria says these are the prevalent ideals in Turkey and the Middle East.
My brother had a good friend in grad school who was Palestinian Muslim and they still keep in touch. He has the sweetest Palestinian Muslim wife. He said his parents sent him to Catholic school and as far as he was concerned, the way he was raised was the same as being Catholic. (If you don't get too hung up on the specifics of Jesus versus Mohammed, I would tend to agree that both Christianity and Islam both seek the same goals.)
Like I said, I'm confused anymore so I'm going to throw out several questions/thoughts here.
1. Could what you're telling me be like what people think about places like Thailand?
a. Could it just be that every society has people like what you describe and those are the ones who get to interract with the foreigners? Kind of like the people who want to marry Americans online site unseen. For the most part, they don't seem to be the pillars of their societies. Could this be the element Bosnian/Yugoslavian workers were exposed to in Libya?
b. Could it also be there is a divide where there are people who still do things the old ways, and there are others who see themselves more modern and enlightened and want to live a western lifestyle?
c. I think the one thing common all over the world is that there always seems to be a city/rural cultural divide. Do people get the impression they do of these societies because the people they are interacting with are in the cities as opposed to the smaller towns?
2. Could it be just that it is human nature to expect the worst when it comes to the sexuality of others?
I don't know these answers. All I know is that I come from virtually the same environment you described, where women especially (and a lot of men) are very lightly used by the time they marry. I have trouble believing that Muslims are that much different than me/us.
I could be wrong, though. I often am.
========
P.S. Are the Bosniaks like the Pomaks? The Pomaks are Macedonian and Bulgarian "Slavs" (not sure what a Slav is really) who converted to Islam, maybe with some Turkish mixed in. Rita Wilson's (Tom Hanks' wife) father was a Pomak.
I tend to be more open-minded about this stuff than most people over there. My dad's side of the family came from a mixed village and he said they always had Turkish friends. In fact, my dad was telling me that they were very close with one Turkish family and on our holidays, my dad's family always sent food and goodies over to them, and on their holidays they would do the same.
P.P.S. Here is the video of the show on NBC where Rita Wilson traces back her roots to Bulgaria. It's actually pretty cool, especially when she tracked down her 96-year old uncle to Bulgaria. It surprised me how I understood so much of what he was saying. It also reminded me how warm people can be in that part of the world.
I think she reunites with her uncle in the last half hour of the show.
I think it's even sadder to spend your entire life paying for a bad decision made early in life. Should we really sacrifice our lives and happiness for the sake of tradition? Is some abstract concept really more important than actual people?
I am convinced that marriages fail in large part because people change. ...
Of course people change, but why should necessarily a lifetime commitment be abrogated because of such changes? I change every year, yet I persevere in the same job, because I crave the security, the pension benefits, and the various intellectual puzzles that crop up from time to time. That a potentially better job is available, is an irrelevant fact, because my job is sufficiently good enough, and the mere fact of its continuity is an overwhelming advantage.
Marriage is similar. Familiarity is by itself a huge factor. Even if one no longer loves one's partner, that partner is a known quantity. Why risk something even worse? Why deal with dating again, especially later in life, when so few potential new partners are available? Or is it somehow superior to be alone?
Have we lost recollection of the adage, "out of the frying pan, into the fire"?
It's true that some decisions are so poor that a speedy rectification is required. That's what happens when 20-year-olds marry hastily and divorce 3 years later. I'm not advocating that such a couple remain shackled together. Rather, the operative question is what happens when 30-year-olds marry and 20 years later so "change" that their marriage is no longer mutually satisfying. This is the sort of divorce-circumstance that we're discussing here.
A "bad decision made early in life" can in large measure be rescued by working to change one's partner. If people change anyway, why not endeavor to change them for the best?
It really isnt as complicated as you guys are making it out to be. The biggest difference between commonwealth countries with high divorce rates and some of the other parts of the world with lower divorce rates, is cultural in nature. I say this having lived for extended periods of time in both places. We live in an individualistic society with huge focus one ones own well-being, lifelong fulfillment and materialistic being. The feminist forced no fault divorce and a clear message that every woman should always be happy, are pushing millions of women to file for divorce for serious reasons like "Im just not happy anymore" or the grass is always greener on the other side way of thinking. In my opinion, its simply selfish behavior. Meanwhile, in many parts of the world, i.e. eastern europe, it is still not culturaly acceptable to divorce for such frivolous and trivial reasons. Usualy a physical, emotional or verbal abuse or substance abuse have to be present in order for one to seek divorce, which is taken pretty seriously, and doesnt benefit one party as often as it does here. Ill sum it up with one concept, when you write in English, you capitalize "I". When you write in polish, you capitalize "You". That actually tells you all you need to know.
It really isnt as complicated as you guys are making it out to be. The biggest difference between commonwealth countries with high divorce rates and some of the other parts of the world with lower divorce rates, is cultural in nature. I say this having lived for extended periods of time in both places. We live in an individualistic society with huge focus one ones own well-being, lifelong fulfillment and materialistic being. The feminist forced no fault divorce and a clear message that every woman should always be happy, are pushing millions of women to file for divorce for serious reasons like "Im just not happy anymore" or the grass is always greener on the other side way of thinking. In my opinion, its simply selfish behavior. Meanwhile, in many parts of the world, i.e. eastern europe, it is still not culturaly acceptable to divorce for such frivolous and trivial reasons. Usualy a physical, emotional or verbal abuse or substance abuse have to be present in order for one to seek divorce, which is taken pretty seriously, and doesnt benefit one party as often as it does here. Ill sum it up with one concept, when you write in English, you capitalize "I". When you write in polish, you capitalize "You". That actually tells you all you need to know.
An excellent point, thoroughly argued!
I'd add that individualism, though a crucial piece, is one of several cultural pieces. Two others are (1) the Anglo (British, American, etc.) tendency to believe in the entitlement to be happy, and that "pursuit of happiness" is possible, and (2) an anti-fatalism asserting that individuals can and should better their lives. Slavic cultures, in contrast, tend to be fatalistic. They assert that whether we strive to better ourselves, or not, the final success or failure rests with forces beyond our control and really even beyond our comprehension. Therefore the state of not being happy isn't to be regretted; simply put, we can't do any better, nor should we aim to.
For Eastern European people - and of course I'm generalizing here - an unsatisfying marriage is tolerated because one generally supposes that there is nothing untoward or irrational about such circumstances. They're simply the hand that one was dealt. Further, one might argue that the attempt to improve one's position - say by divorcing and marrying someone else - is liable to only make things worse. So unless things are truly intolerable, one perseveres. This isn't necessarily because the individual subordinates his happiness, say to that of family cohesion or village imperatives; but because the attempt to pursue one's happiness is illegitimate and likely to fail.
The latter, by the way, is my own view (and I'm from Eastern Europe).
I'd add that individualism, though a crucial piece, is one of several cultural pieces. Two others are (1) the Anglo (British, American, etc.) tendency to believe in the entitlement to be happy, and that "pursuit of happiness" is possible, and (2) an anti-fatalism asserting that individuals can and should better their lives. Slavic cultures, in contrast, tend to be fatalistic. They assert that whether we strive to better ourselves, or not, the final success or failure rests with forces beyond our control and really even beyond our comprehension. Therefore the state of not being happy isn't to be regretted; simply put, we can't do any better, nor should we aim to.
For Eastern European people - and of course I'm generalizing here - an unsatisfying marriage is tolerated because one generally supposes that there is nothing untoward or irrational about such circumstances. They're simply the hand that one was dealt. Further, one might argue that the attempt to improve one's position - say by divorcing and marrying someone else - is liable to only make things worse. So unless things are truly intolerable, one perseveres. This isn't necessarily because the individual subordinates his happiness, say to that of family cohesion or village imperatives; but because the attempt to pursue one's happiness is illegitimate and likely to fail.
The latter, by the way, is my own view (and I'm from Eastern Europe).
What about the droves of women in Russia who divorce their alcoholic husbands? Women don't put up with "the hand they were dealt", in my observation, unless they've emigrated to the West, have no job or employment options at all, and need to stick with their husband. And in cases like that, it's the husband who's likely to initiate divorce.
For women in Eastern Europe, "improving one's position" means liberating oneself of the 20-lb. weight around one's neck represented by the alcoholic or philandering husband. Re-marrying rarely is involved.
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