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I *do* think that women should approach and initiate (break the ice if you will). Make that first kiss or propose that first date. But I think they should stop short of "pursuing". In most cases (not all, but the majority), I don't think a man who has to be "chased" is really interested in the woman chasing him.
OK, so it's boiling down to how we define "pursuing". Women have made the first move, and the 2nd, if necessary, since time immemorial. It has nothing to do with feminism. If a woman takes a shine to a shy guy, she'll make the first move. If he doesn't take the hint, she'll make the second move. Many happy marriages have resulted from this pattern of interaction. Guys who thought they didn't stand a chance with women are thrilled when a nice, attractive woman approaches them. It's just simple birds-and-bees stuff, it has nothing to do with politics. When they think a lifetime of happiness is at stake, women will go for what they want.
OK, so it's boiling down to how we define "pursuing". Women have made the first move, and the 2nd, if necessary, since time immemorial. It has nothing to do with feminism. If a woman takes a shine to a shy guy, she'll make the first move. If he doesn't take the hint, she'll make the second move. Many happy marriages have resulted from this pattern of interaction. Guys who thought they didn't stand a chance with women are thrilled when a nice, attractive woman approaches them. It's just simple birds-and-bees stuff, it has nothing to do with politics. When they think a lifetime of happiness is at stake, women will go for what they want.
What exactly does Calipoppy mean by pursue then? I took "pursue" to mean ask a man out. If he said no, you respectfully move on.
What exactly does Calipoppy mean by pursue then? I took "pursue" to mean ask a man out. If he said no, you respectfully move on.
Right. Well, I got the impression jillabean meant by "pursue" -- to "chase", as in: with persistence. I thought the OP's "pursue" meant making some kind of first move, getting the guy's attention, initiating a conversation (or two), and if he doesn't get the hint, asking him out. But nothing beyond asking him out, if he declines or otherwise expresses lack of interest.
Again, it's "not going the way you want it." If you like the old, courting stuff, that's fine. Feels hella good not being in the 50s.
The whole "in the 50s, girls were innocent and just let the boys come to them and they made the boys court them - they were so innocent and not pushy at all" idea isn't accurate at all. You wouldn't believe my mom's stories of some of the many ways she and her friends jumped through hoops to arrange "accidental" meetings, get a tear in their stockings that they suddenly had to inspect, hiking up their skirts and folding the waistband under to make them shorter once they got to school or to where the boys were, friends asking guys out on behalf of friends, girls stalking the guy's interests, etc., etc.
They may not have outright asked the boy, "Do you want to go on a date?" but they would certainly say to a guy, "I'm so sad, I just have nothing to do this weekend, I wish someone would ask me to the dance" or practically jump right into his lap in order to get him to do so and they weren't shy about making their presence and their attributes (within social parameters, of course, nobody wanted to be "the bad girl") known at all. Nor were they shy of direct looks, etc.
I don't think women have ever just waited for men to come to them, it's just that we've utilized different ways throughout history to do so.
Translation: she gets her way because you always defer to her (i.e. she wears the pants)
If you feel that I always defer to her: she and I have compromised and given-and-taken on various things. For example, she has (at my request) committed to relocating permanently to be with me within the next few years, once she has successfully completed her undergraduate education. ETA: I have agreed to relocate to be with her in the present, until she can make her permanent later relocation to where I am. She has agreed and accepted to become formally engaged to me (official proposal to come in the very near future). And this was despite the fact that the engagement would technically be occurring slightly earlier than she had originally ideally envisioned and preferred. It was a compromise, on both our parts, and she was willing to give a little because a formal wedding will not occur until she has completed her undergraduate studies and is enrolled in graduate school -- so I get her engagement now, in the present, while still honoring her wishes to get married in about 2 years.
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Some women LOVE beta males because they believe that beta males are easier to
manipulate (and they usually are)
I am truly sorry that you feel that way, because I can honestly say with a straight face that I truly believe she has never once tried to manipulate me. I genuinely mean that.
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So let's fast forward a few more years into the relationship to when she is
complaining to her friends that her husband has no backbone, lacks passion and
is a total pushover. And then cue the world's smallest violin for you future
diatribe about how women don't want "nice guys".
I already have a guaranteed advance "yes" from her, regarding the engagement that will formally be taking place very soon. She has made it eminently clear that she wants to be married to me, and that she loves me. So I am not seriously worried about failure, or any of the items cited above coming to pass (If she had really felt unhappy about me, she and I would have not already lasted as long as we have )
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(btw you don't have to be a beta male to be a "nice guy")
To me, being called a "beta male" is not an insult...it is actually a compliment Not every guy is or wants to be an alpha...so be it, I am content with what I am. I am happy exactly as I am, and I have a wonderful girl who loves me...and that is really enough for me.
Right. Well, I got the impression jillabean meant by "pursue" -- to "chase", as in: with persistence. I thought the OP's "pursue" meant making some kind of first move, getting the guy's attention, initiating a conversation (or two), and if he doesn't get the hint, asking him out. But nothing beyond asking him out, if he declines or otherwise expresses lack of interest.
I was thinking persistence too but I'm not sure. It could actually mean either/or, I think.
I will make myself known to a man I like, but he has to initiate and pursue. I fit better with men who are confident enough to put their ego on the line.
I initiated and pursued once and, in the end, he turned out to be too submissive/passive for my liking. Shoulda seen that from a mile away.
Women will do what suits them. If you don't like it, don't date them.
I was thinking persistence too but I'm not sure. It could actually mean either/or, I think.
I think you did a pretty good job of describing it, in your "50's" post. Women today may not do those same exact things to get a guy's attention, but they do get his attention, one way or another. And they may try several times before giving up (or getting the results they want). But being aggressive and asking repeatedly for a date would be going too far.
In more pluralistic societies, it is culturally acceptable (and on practical grounds almost essential!) for women to occasionally be the initiators. In more conservative societies, such as rural Midwestern America, women who “pursue” face severe inhibiting factors. I applaud all who try, but am dismayed at how few actually do try.
But the real question isn’t who pursues whom. The real question is how to create situations where single women and men can interact in a non-threatening manner conducive to initiating overtures for romantic contact. The social upheavals of the latter decades of the 20th century have removed the more common settings, such as the workplace, for viability as dating venues. Meanwhile, family influence (for example, as matchmakers) has also waned. The emerging problem is not with dating strategies per se, not with how to comport oneself or how to speak, but how to place oneself in an environment where there exists potential for meeting eligible people.
If you feel that I always defer to her: she and I have compromised and given-and-taken on various things. For example, she has (at my request) committed to relocating permanently to be with me within the next few years, once she has successfully completed her undergraduate education. ETA: I have agreed to relocate to be with her in the present, until she can make her permanent later relocation to where I am. She has agreed and accepted to become formally engaged to me (official proposal to come in the very near future). And this was despite the fact that the engagement would technically be occurring slightly earlier than she had originally ideally envisioned and preferred. It was a compromise, on both our parts, and she was willing to give a little because a formal wedding will not occur until she has completed her undergraduate studies and is enrolled in graduate school -- so I get her engagement now, in the present, while still honoring her wishes to get married in about 2 years.
As I said, she is basically getting her way...but she is making you believe that was a "compromise".
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Originally Posted by Knight2009
I am truly sorry that you feel that way, because I can honestly say with a straight face that I truly believe she has never once tried to manipulate me. I genuinely mean that.
I'm quite certain that you don't realize that you are 'possibly' being manipulated. Guys like yourself NEVER see it coming...ever.
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(If she had really felt unhappy about me, she and I would have not already lasted as long as we have 
)
Not every guy is or wants to be an alpha...so be it, I am content with what I am. I am happy exactly as I am, and I have a wonderful girl who loves me...and that is really enough for me.
