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I always thought PUA was stupid. If a girl doesn't like you, no amount of "game" is going to change that. If she does like you, then you don't even need PUA.
But the advice women give men is absolutly useless. The reason PUA is so popular among men is because they have already tried to listen to the advice to women and their mothers. It does not work, because women don't know what attracts them and what doesn't.
And here is the misogyny underlying it all. Mistrust of women... "Women don't really know what they want". Do you realize how degrading that view is? Why is it you know what you want & what you find attractive, but women don't?
Maybe you don't understand what they've communicated to begin with?
I see few men ever trying what women say they'd like. They misconstrue passiveness, neediness & insecurity as being "nice". That's not "nice".
I think the reason PUA is popular among men is because they want a quick fix to get laid & to alleviate any guilt in manipulating someone into it.
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Majority of women are not attracted to needy men, men who don't flirt, or who is afraid to joke around.
True....but what women say they want needy men, men who don't flirt at all, and who don;'t joke around?
Women frequently say they like confident men, men who are charming & can banter (read: flirt), and who make them laugh.... None of that involves manipulation.
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No, I never said the material does not respect women. I said many of the ones teaching the material does not respect women.
People who don't respect women teach things that are respectful of women?
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Try looking for materials on how to attract women and you will find almost nothing, because it not considered acceptable for men to use techniques to learn how to attract women. Women want their actions to be genuine, not fake.
Yeah, I said that.... And a quick search on Amazon disagrees with you. Besides, if PUA is all about improving your inner person, then why not just focus on that & let your attractiveness grow naturally? There are tons of books about that for men or humans in general.
I think the answer here is that these guys just want to manipulate women into casual sex. I see this being admitted finally, but there's always some initial cover of men just trying to attract women & be more confident & blah blah blah, and how this is good for both men & women. But come on - this is teaching men to USE women, not mutual fulfillment of needs & desires. The justification initially used in these discussions is telling...
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No, it doesn't. If it made those women feel manipulated, deceived, and used then they wouldn't agree to it. It is afterwards when the guy does not stick around that she will feel like that.
Exactly... which means she didn't really want it to be or think it would be a one night stand or fling.
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Originally Posted by nokiddin
well, on that point we agree, as i'm sure you will agree not all men and women are looking for LTRs and are just fine with a good clean hook up.
But it's not good & clean if it involves emotional manipulation. PUA does not teach the openness there its supporters claim it does. I've read this stuff too - it's full of tactics that are deceitful and play on insecurities in the other person.
And if these women just want casual sex, then why so much trouble to manipulate them into it?
And here is the misogyny underlying it all. Mistrust of women... "Women don't really know what they want". Do you realize how degrading that view is? Why is it you know what you want & what you find attractive, but women don't?
So in your fairy tale world women understand 100% of their feelings. And they will never have conflicting faults between what their feeling says and what their brain says. In reality we do not understand our feelings. And its not for girls either.
Ask a guy why a certain type of porn turns him on. He has absolutely no clue. In reality the brain do not communicate the reason for all of its actions.
Why should guys live in your fairy tale world, and get rejected by women?
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True....but what women say they want needy men, men who don't flirt at all, and who don;'t joke around?
Women frequently say they like confident men, men who are charming & can banter (read: flirt), and who make them laugh.... None of that involves manipulation.
But do they tell you how to flirt? What PUA tells you is the specifics on the good advice. In terms of neediness many women tell men to do needy actions.
For instance an usual advice would be, "be confident". But in reality you should act confident
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Besides, if PUA is all about improving your inner person, then why not just focus on that & let your attractiveness grow naturally? There are tons of books about that for men or humans in general.
Because learning the techniques by trial and error or indirectly is much more inefficient. Why not learn the techniques directly? I ask you, why should men do what you want, and not what is in their best interest.
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I think the answer here is that these guys just want to manipulate women into casual sex. I see this being admitted finally, but there's always some initial cover of men just trying to attract women & be more confident & blah blah blah, and how this is good for both men & women. But come on - this is teaching men to USE women, not mutual fulfillment of needs & desires. The justification initially used in these discussions is telling...
No, what you want use PUA to is completely up to you. I never used it for casual sex, and I know plenty of men who don't use it for casual sex.
And many men has always tried to get casual sex. You could make all PUA material inaccessible and it would not do a thing. Then naturals would fool women to have casual sex instead.
Why is it always the mans fault when some men uses a technique to get a girl to bed. Isn't it just as well the women's fault for requiring those techniques in the first place.
If that was the case, there would not be that many defending it. I have met heaps of men who have read some PUA and claim it has helped them attract women.
In fact I am one of them. In my younger years I read about PUA techniques, and I started to use them. I would start to touch girls more, I would hold eye contact, I became a lot less needy, I would take more of a leadership role and I would follow the 3 seconds rule.
And it worked. The reason PUA is still popular is because people like me read the material, and it works. Then we will recommend it to friends. If it didn't work for anyone, then no one would recommend the material and it would die out.
Do many PUA teach this? As the father of a little girl who will some day be exposed to this nonsense I suppose I'll have to add "light or casual touching" to her list of reasons to shoot a guy down without so much as a second thought. Touching a girl without her consent is wrong, regardless of how minor it may seem to you. Touching a guy, is as well. Don't violate another's person.
The touching thing is especially funny to me because in my dating days I was always hands off until I could read the signal clearly that some form of physical contact was okay. I had many women tell me how refreshing this was. This was common even in cold approaches at sports bars after ballgames and such. Women would tell me how refreshing it was that I didn't try the "hand on the small of her back thing" or the "light tap on her elbow" and a few others.
Some women will respond positively to it, as you've experienced. Good for you, and if that's their preference, that's fine with me. This man will be teaching his daughter that touching before she gives consent is grounds for dismissal. I'll be teaching the same but from the opposite position to my boys. I plan on raising two gentlemen who don't PUA techniques to meet women. I have a feeling they'll be just fine.
Regarding eye contact and being less needy, this is basic stuff that existed long before PUA wrote books about it. Credit the PUA for finding a way to make some $$$ off of common sense. Eye contact has always been a very basic tenant of conversation and not being needy has always been a basic tenant of adulthood. (I'll acknowledge this is decreasing rapidly in modern society, but that's a different topic for a different thread.) I'm not familiar with the 3 second rule, so I can't comment there.
Also, I've seen a few people refer to "AFC" a couple times. To me, "AFC" has always been "American Football Conference" wherein play my beloved Denver Broncos. What is "AFC" in the context of this conversation?
Do many PUA teach this? As the father of a little girl who will some day be exposed to this nonsense I suppose I'll have to add "light or casual touching" to her list of reasons to shoot a guy down without so much as a second thought. Touching a girl without her consent is wrong, regardless of how minor it may seem to you. Touching a guy, is as well. Don't violate another's person.
The touching thing is especially funny to me because in my dating days I was always hands off until I could read the signal clearly that some form of physical contact was okay. I had many women tell me how refreshing this was. This was common even in cold approaches at sports bars after ballgames and such. Women would tell me how refreshing it was that I didn't try the "hand on the small of her back thing" or the "light tap on her elbow" and a few others.
You do realize you can not control her, and if you try to she is likely to rebel.
Doesn't matter if you like it or not, but she is likely to go for guys who have learned those techniques. They may have used PUA or they have just learned it naturally. You can tell her that she should reject all guys who playfully touch her, but I would not recommend it. Either you will develop a girl with major insecurities. Or she will just ignore it and lose respect for you.
Are you worried she may end up with a guy who has sex with her and then dump her. If you are, then you should rather focus on not having sex on the first date. People who have casual sex have no interest waiting months or years before a girl gets ready.
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Some women will respond positively to it, as you've experienced. Good for you, and if that's their preference, that's fine with me. This man will be teaching his daughter that touching before she gives consent is grounds for dismissal. I'll be teaching the same but from the opposite position to my boys. I plan on raising two gentlemen who don't PUA techniques to meet women. I have a feeling they'll be just fine.
Good luck with that. You sound very controlling, and your kids are likely to rebel due to it. I mean seriously, a guy has to get consent before he could touch her. That wasn't even the case in the 60s. And how are you going to stop your boys from seeking out PUA material. If you say that is banned material, then that will increase the chance of them looking at the material.
Most women like men who playfully touch. I date proper girls, not sluts and I don't have casual sex. Out of the women I know 9 out of 10 like casually touching. The 1 out of 10 normally does not have boyfriends.
Of course they don't like guys who go overboard, you need to read her. But a lot of guys never do any touching and get friendzoned.
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Regarding eye contact and being less needy, this is basic stuff that existed long before PUA wrote books about it. Credit the PUA for finding a way to make some $$$ off of common sense. Eye contact has always been a very basic tenant of conversation and not being needy has always been a basic tenant of adulthood. (I'll acknowledge this is decreasing rapidly in modern society, but that's a different topic for a different thread.) I'm not familiar with the 3 second rule, so I can't comment there.
But if you read other material thats not what they tell you. Well, to be fair eye contact is documented in other sources, but not its importance. Other sources often tend to encourage neediness. Guys are told they should always try to please her as much as possible. But then you will perceived as needy. In PUA theory you are told to sometimes be distant and then you will be perceived as less needy.
3 second rule is a way to look confident. Whatever you think about doing, you should do it in 3 seconds. A lot of people look less confident because they hesitate doing things.
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Also, I've seen a few people refer to "AFC" a couple times. To me, "AFC" has always been "American Football Conference" wherein play my beloved Denver Broncos. What is "AFC" in the context of this conversation?
guys please stop with the line by line replies, i know i don't read it and i'm sure many others do he same.
i'm done talking about PUA or trying to inform anyone otherwise of their opinion. I wish PUA believers would do the same. Just go underground and use your time improving yourselves instead of trying to win others over. its a lost cause. the less ppl know about it, the better.
someone please close this thread. it's lost its utility.
guys please stop with the line by line replies, i know i don't read it and i'm sure many others do he same.
i'm done talking about PUA or trying to inform anyone otherwise of their opinion. I wish PUA believers would do the same. Just go underground and use your time improving yourselves instead of trying to win others over. its a lost cause. the less ppl know about it, the better.
someone please close this thread. it's lost its utility.
Actually the bolded statement is quite true.
But I like to debate this topic, and I waste time debating other topics as well. I write quite fast so its not that big of a deal for me. I don't really need to win people over. I just don't want the debates to be that one sided.
You do realize you can not control her, and if you try to she is likely to rebel.
Doesn't matter if you like it or not, but she is likely to go for guys who have learned those techniques. They may have used PUA or they have just learned it naturally. You can tell her that she should reject all guys who playfully touch her, but I would not recommend it. Either you will develop a girl with major insecurities. Or she will just ignore it and lose respect for you.
Are you worried she may end up with a guy who has sex with her and then dump her. If you are, then you should rather focus on not having sex on the first date. People who have casual sex have no interest waiting months or years before a girl gets ready.
Good luck with that. You sound very controlling, and your kids are likely to rebel due to it. I mean seriously, a guy has to get consent before he could touch her. That wasn't even the case in the 60s. And how are you going to stop your boys from seeking out PUA material. If you say that is banned material, then that will increase the chance of them looking at the material.
Most women like men who playfully touch. I date proper girls, not sluts and I don't have casual sex. Out of the women I know 9 out of 10 like casually touching. The 1 out of 10 normally does not have boyfriends.
Of course they don't like guys who go overboard, you need to read her. But a lot of guys never do any touching and get friendzoned.
But if you read other material thats not what they tell you. Well, to be fair eye contact is documented in other sources, but not its importance. Other sources often tend to encourage neediness. Guys are told they should always try to please her as much as possible. But then you will perceived as needy. In PUA theory you are told to sometimes be distant and then you will be perceived as less needy.
3 second rule is a way to look confident. Whatever you think about doing, you should do it in 3 seconds. A lot of people look less confident because they hesitate
doing things.
Average Frustrated Chump. It is a silly term.
That you consider teaching standards of conduct and expectation to be controlling speaks negatively to your character. Of course when my kids become adults they are free and responsible for their own decisions. It's my job now to equip them to make the best decisions and hold the highest expectations for themselves as well as how they allow others to treat them.
Also your stats are meaningless. Aside from the probability you just made them up on the spot, the larger issue here is if a woman doesn't want to be touched it is your obligation to respect that, even if you don't know her and her preferences. Hence your default setting should be one that respects her person and assumes physical contact is not wanted.
Guys are not necessarily told they should always try to please women. They have to consider their own well being too. Doing this conveys a sense of self worth, not neediness. It is also fairly instinctive for people to always consider their own interests. Balancing this with selflessness does require practice and discipline, but I think it can be learned without the help of a PUA.
The 3 second rule is another that pre-dates PUA. again, credit the industry for finding a way to profit off of common sense, in this case the idea of decisiveness.
That you consider teaching standards of conduct and expectation to be controlling speaks negatively to your character. Of course when my kids become adults they are free and responsible for their own decisions. It's my job now to equip them to make the best decisions and hold the highest expectations for themselves as well as how they allow others to treat them.
Oh... come on. You are not teaching them standards of conduct and expectation. No, you are trying to control what they read and believe in. You are trying to force your own daugther to reject guys after your standards, and not her own. It is quite disturbing.
And I think it speaks negatively to your character that you try to control your kids in that manner. And I warn, you are likely to fail. Just like the parents who tried to control which religion their kids have or what political view their kids have,
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Also your stats are meaningless. Aside from the probability you just made them up on the spot, the larger issue here is if a woman doesn't want to be touched it is your obligation to respect that, even if you don't know her and her preferences. Hence your default setting should be one that respects her person and assumes physical contact is not wanted.
If a girl does not want to be touched, then she will show that by her signals and you will stop. I don't see the problem.
You can not live a life without being touched by other people. It is completely normal. Normal people do not ask for permission to touch, and from what you wrote it does not seem like you even followed your own standards when you were young.
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Guys are not necessarily told they should always try to please women. They have to consider their own well being too. Doing this conveys a sense of self worth, not neediness. It is also fairly instinctive for people to always consider their own interests. Balancing this with selflessness does require practice and discipline, but I think it can be learned without the help of a PUA.
So you are saying guys should balance their own well being and pleasing women. But what if you want to please her. Then by your logic he should always please her. In that case he will be regarded as needy.
Hence, if that is the advice we could expect outside PUA, then it shows that PUA is needed.
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The 3 second rule is another that pre-dates PUA. again, credit the industry for finding a way to profit off of common sense, in this case the idea of decisiveness.
You know that nothing in PUA is totally new. It is all about the packaging.
And have you ever thought about the fact that for some people it is not common sense?
This man will be teaching his daughter that touching before she gives consent is grounds for dismissal.
I plan on raising two gentlemen who don't PUA techniques to meet women.
I suppose I'll have to add "light or casual touching" to her list of reasons to shoot a guy down without so much as a second thought.
This should be an interesting study for you.
Authoritarian parents whose child-rearing style can be summed up as "it's my way or the highway" are more likely to raise disrespectful, delinquent children
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