Asking women out: being direct, acting attracted, vs. a neutered society?

[Ascension2012]

Originally Posted by Peanuttree

See, but then all of dating would exclude guys who are even a little nervous or non-sexual from dating. I know I said I'd like to try being more flirty, but it might not pan out for me. I feel like women just don't have the sense to actually take a chance on a guy, so dating has reduced to only the most superficial stuff.
BUt ultimately I guess I just gotta try more.

You know, many people, men and women get a little nervous when meeting someone new, especially when there is a possibility of a future date, I think its perfectly normal. I was one of the guys that used to get so nervous around women, that it would leave me paralyzed and unable to even say a word. It was absolutely ridiculous and extreme. But then one day, I sat down and thought about it for a little bit. I quickly realized that my fear and nervousness were completely irrational, unsubstantiated and really getting in the way of my ability to live my life the way Ive always wanted. Just think about this:

- In general terms, women are physically weaker than men, thus when guys approach, they do not have to fear for their well being. They will not be attacked, nor is there any true possibility of physical harm.

- Men approaching is the most natural thing in the world, both men and women expect this. Men are supposed to be direct and women indirect. You, approaching a woman is something you are not only entitled to, it is something that is expected of you. Unlike women, we do not have luxury of sitting on our hands and looking pretty, until a man comes knocking on our door.

- rejection stings bad only the first few times, and after awhile most guys just think of it as part of life. Every single man walking this globe, gets rejected at some point or another. I don't care if youre a superstar or a millionaire, you will be rejected. Not to mention, in many cases, women reject for thousand reasons other than anything to do with yourself. Men tend to internalize rejections, and blame themselves, but in reality the rejection may have absolutely nothing to do with you at all. Congratulating yourself on having balls to approach in the first place and taking the time to see if your approach can be improved, is the most definite way to go. So what you got rejected? If you never approached or got paralyzed by fear, your chances of a date would have been exactly 0%. By approaching you improved your chances significantly. There is absolutely nothing to lose.

If youd like a few tips on where to get started:

- take time to realize that your nerves and fear are completely irrational - nothing to fear
- when approaching, always always always be outcome independent. It will help you overcome these irrational fears
- make a goal to talk to X amount of women per day or per week. Im talking about any women, young, old, pretty and fugly. Remember, youre outcome independent, so it doesn't really matter.
- realize that it really doesn't matter much what you say, its all about how you say it
- be relaxed, flirtatious and sexual and show it in your disposition and your body language.
- Play eye contact game, with any woman you may find attractive. Do not take your eyes off of hers, let her do that. This is how you display your masculine quality and set the tone for your interaction. Be assertive.

Hope some of this helps. IF you want, shoot me a PM and I can always share a ton more.

[Peanuttree]

Why WOULD I? I was happy as a clam being single. I did particularly like the guy. We shared exactly zero common interests. I don't owe him or anyone a "chance". I am not a commodity. I am a PERSON.

When I think of dating today, I look to my friends' kids in high school and college, my nieces and nephews, etc.. They seem to be together because they LIKE each other. The do their recreational and fitness activities, do their charitable activities together, hang out with family together. I don't see how that is superficial.

OK, I get it, but you have to understand that that's a recipe for dying alone. Sounds exaggurated but really it is apt. Unless you take a chance on someone, you're never going to get to know anyone. Think Pride and Prejudice.
OK, clubs and hobbies, I get that, but all those younger people are in school. After a certain point, you're not in school anymore, and it's just work. A LOT of people here have started threads talking about how they have no one to get to know.
For the record, like I said, I'm trying at school, but I only do so much right now. I'll have time to do more later once I finish this little project fixing up my place and catch up with homework, but even once I start hanging out more it can be difficult.
Don't you think there's a reason they came up with arranged marriages? It wasn't all about not having time to fritter with dating, it was also that dating is inherently flawed to some extent, depending on how people can go about. The aforementioned shallowness in dating can easily spring up in a dating culture.

[srjth]

I find men who are direct but respectful more appealing sexually.

[somebodynew]

Originally Posted by Peanuttree

OK, I get it, but you have to understand that that's a recipe for dying alone.

I am and have been happily married for 20 years.

Sounds exaggurated but really it is apt. Unless you take a chance on someone, you're never going to get to know anyone. Think Pride and Prejudice.
OK, clubs and hobbies, I get that, but all those younger people are in school. After a certain point, you're not in school anymore, and it's just work. A LOT of people here have started threads talking about how they have no one to get to know.
For the record, like I said, I'm trying at school, but I only do so much right now. I'll have time to do more later once I finish this little project fixing up my place and catch up with homework, but even once I start hanging out more it can be difficult.
Don't you think there's a reason they came up with arranged marriages? It wasn't all about not having time to fritter with dating, it was also that dating is inherently flawed to some extent, depending on how people can go about. The aforementioned shallowness in dating can easily spring up in a dating culture.

Ok. If that is going to work for you.

[Inebriated Duck]

I think you're overblowing things a tad. Yes, there are certainly situations where you do not want to approach with romantic intent. I'll just go ahead and list a few of the major venues that are either good or bad for approaching from a safety and respect standpoint.

Work: Generally not a good idea. There are just too many pitfalls and complications that arise from hitting on someone in the work-space. Unless it's a large company and the two of you are from different departments, I would avoid doing anything in this arena. Making friends with your co-workers and then having them introduce you to potential dates is perfectly fine.

Street and Public Transport: This is a big one, especially in large metropolitan areas. Men don't realize just how careful women have to be in these areas. When a woman is riding home on the bus after work and you're leaning over to flirt with her alarm bells are going off in her head.

Shopping Areas: I've heard alot of people say on this forum that this is apparently a viable place to meet people but I've never seen nor heard of any flirting going on in the retail areas I visit, unless the two people already know each other (eg. staff). Maybe I haven't been in the US long enough...not that I go shopping very often.

Bars and Clubs: The classic place to meet people through a haze of social lubrication. Of course there are as many types of nightlife venues as there are species of bird. Some are great for chatting and some are simply too loud or attract an unfriendly crowd.

Social Clubs, Classes and Activities (IE not gym or sports classes, but rather interest meetups and the like): I think these are probably the best places to meet people outside of existing social networks. Everyone is there for the same hobby and so that gives them common ground.

[TJenkins602]

Originally Posted by Peanuttree

I don't know what the word is for it but obviously the same "word" can have multiple, related definitions, but each one is a clear, distinct "word"


Like I said, I do, which is why, you know, I posted, but you're not offering any. You just want to cling onto your hallowed feminism which I knocked down pretty easily.

How about you stop, since it's OT?

You are not likely to find the help you need on these forums.

Originally Posted by Peanuttree

Actually, I'm being pretty clear, the English language is just limited. If you can't understand that language is based on context, and that words have precise definitions, then you need to re-evaluate your life. A word can't "have different meanings to each person". That's literally, semantically impossible. For example, the word "rubber", does that have different definitions for different people? No. Thank you. This has been a lesson in basic linguistic skills, brought to you by the The School for Shutting Your Mouth And Please Stop Talking Out of Your Assâ„¢


Again, like you know me from some internet posts. I'm not an angry guy, I don't let random internet commenters throw off my threads with BS.



Never denigrated an entire gender or the entire west, but feminism as a movement, nowadays, is based on denigrating men to some extent, if you want to call it that, and traditional Western culture in general.



Wow, it's amazing, you guys know me so well from some internet posts? Do you guys have magical super powers?
Oh no, you odn't, you just can't handle that I've won the debate, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to feminism, and you're butthurt over it so won't shut up and keep derailing my thread.

No if we could get back to real responses to my original post/topic

Originally Posted by Peanuttree

In general modern feminism is about blaming patriarchy and slanting the courts and laws against men in favor of women. Some of them are more extreme than others but in general this is what feminism is





Oh jeez, what is with you people? You follow one OT thread, on a topic that bugs someone, and all of a sudden you KNOW that it subsumes their entire personality? PLEASE. Maybe it's just that you people aren't relenting on a little political opinion off-topic bugbear of mine and I'm not letting you get away with it. The Original topic is more about my shyness and approach than anything, but you little political activists just don't want to be told you're wrong and won't stop derailing my thread.
For example, what conclusions? My chance of finding hapiness? What the hell are you even talking about?

The whole point of the original thing is I've always felt like it might be "rude" to act even slightly sexual and flirty, and I think that comes from our society, that's the way we were all raised in the blue states. I also mentioned some if it may come from my family.
Come to think of it, part of it is I can't handle social rejection to well, because I see it as aggression, as throughout my life the two coincided. People being a dick to me especially, but come to think of it I have had girls who didn't like me in school go out of my way to make me feel bad or like a freak or weirdo or whatever as a manipulative game, because they didn't like this or that thing that I did, and I had just joined the higher-level math class which for whatever reason was a slight to them. Not girls I hit on, just girls in the class.
I have just had SO MANY grating people in my life.

A lot of us have dealt with and will deal with such cruel people throughout our lives. I deal with people who go out of their way to be cruel to me as well. The best thing to do for the most part is to just tune them out. There is a point where you may have to do something, but it rarely gets there. Just keep your head.

Sad but true, people will make conclusions based on what they see from you. If you present negativity, people will figure that you are negative. I wouldn't fault them on that. You are the one that is presenting yourself. If you are really a positive person, but you present people negativity, people are going to respond to that negativity. Then there are some people who gloss over other aspects of people.

Originally Posted by Peanuttree

See, but then all of dating would exclude guys who are even a little nervous or non-sexual from dating. I know I said I'd like to try being more flirty, but it might not pan out for me. I feel like women just don't have the sense to actually take a chance on a guy, so dating has reduced to only the most superficial stuff.
BUt ultimately I guess I just gotta try more.

A lot of success in dating rests on your mindset. So it is best to manage whatever hang ups you have that are sabotaging your dating life (this can only be done from within you). There is nothing wrong with being direct with a woman as of right now. You are not going to be shamed and facing sexual harassment / assault charges just for approaching a right-minded woman and letting her know that you are interested. Yes, there are basket cases and they can ruin your life.

Originally Posted by somebodynew

OK so. Here is the thing. I am a woman. When I read this, it makes me want to vomit on you. What you describe sounds as creepy as any thing I can imagine. I wonder of the females consistently rejecting you catch the same vibe.

But let's say, for argument, that what you say is correct. How can "society" prevent you from exchanging this energy if no outward action is required for it? Rule books cannot change inner feelings.

Ha ha!!! Watch out Ascension!!!

I'm reading over his post and you might have misunderstood something. I think his whole point is that people exchange energies and that the type of energy you give off, you will generally get back. That's what I got out of it.

I don't think ascension is the one saying that society can prevent that.

Originally Posted by Dewdrop93

I've told the OP on numerous occasions that he has some severe anger issues. Obviously, he continues to prove me wrong. Everyone really IS out to get him and women really ARE evil!

I have a friend who tends to be negative about women, and yet he has more success than me.

Originally Posted by Ascension2012

You know, many people, men and women get a little nervous when meeting someone new, especially when there is a possibility of a future date, I think its perfectly normal. I was one of the guys that used to get so nervous around women, that it would leave me paralyzed and unable to even say a word. It was absolutely ridiculous and extreme. But then one day, I sat down and thought about it for a little bit. I quickly realized that my fear and nervousness were completely irrational, unsubstantiated and really getting in the way of my ability to live my life the way Ive always wanted. Just think about this:

- In general terms, women are physically weaker than men, thus when guys approach, they do not have to fear for their well being. They will not be attacked, nor is there any true possibility of physical harm.

- Men approaching is the most natural thing in the world, both men and women expect this. Men are supposed to be direct and women indirect. You, approaching a woman is something you are not only entitled to, it is something that is expected of you. Unlike women, we do not have luxury of sitting on our hands and looking pretty, until a man comes knocking on our door.

- rejection stings bad only the first few times, and after awhile most guys just think of it as part of life. Every single man walking this globe, gets rejected at some point or another. I don't care if youre a superstar or a millionaire, you will be rejected. Not to mention, in many cases, women reject for thousand reasons other than anything to do with yourself. Men tend to internalize rejections, and blame themselves, but in reality the rejection may have absolutely nothing to do with you at all. Congratulating yourself on having balls to approach in the first place and taking the time to see if your approach can be improved, is the most definite way to go. So what you got rejected? If you never approached or got paralyzed by fear, your chances of a date would have been exactly 0%. By approaching you improved your chances significantly. There is absolutely nothing to lose.

If youd like a few tips on where to get started:

- take time to realize that your nerves and fear are completely irrational - nothing to fear
- when approaching, always always always be outcome independent. It will help you overcome these irrational fears
- make a goal to talk to X amount of women per day or per week. Im talking about any women, young, old, pretty and fugly. Remember, youre outcome independent, so it doesn't really matter.
- realize that it really doesn't matter much what you say, its all about how you say it
- be relaxed, flirtatious and sexual and show it in your disposition and your body language.
- Play eye contact game, with any woman you may find attractive. Do not take your eyes off of hers, let her do that. This is how you display your masculine quality and set the tone for your interaction. Be assertive.

Hope some of this helps. IF you want, shoot me a PM and I can always share a ton more.

Some other poster on here said that rejection is a large part of life. Sheer truth right there. I also agree with the fact that most people are not attracted to most people or something along those lines. While for the most part, women have to be physically pleasing to a man. A man has to show activity. Even though women can work and pay their own bills these days, men are still expected to be the provider. In order for a man to provide, he has to take initiative. He has to go for what he desires.

When a man approaches a woman, it communicates a will and ability to go get what is needed. (not that a woman is needed). Most women will respect that, if they are not attracted to that. The line is drawn when it comes to how you do it.

If you come on too strong, she will most likely be uncomfortable. If you are a gentleman in your interaction, most (I'm tempted to say all) level headed women will appreciate that.

At the same time, its okay for a woman to approach a man. If your woman approached you, that does not necessarily make you less of a man. Women approach me a few times. As a matter of fact, they approach me more often than I approach them. It's mostly for conversation, but I have been asked out. I could see how this may actually sound emasculating to some insecure masculinists, but I don't feel emasculated, I swear. When this happens, I am usually busy with something else, trying to solve a certain problem. If I was standing somewhere staring at her like some scared nervous puppy when she approached me, then I'd have a problem. But usually, I am going for something else.


OP, it is not as bad as you think. I used to have the same mindset. At some point, I just snapped out of it. I'm thinking that my brain might have just had its pre-30s growth spurt. Many people say that I am almost a completely different person from just a year ago.

Take a break from the dating thing and seek to work on other things that will add to your life. That's all I can say.