The paradox of approaching women (American, sex, social, seeking)

[nald]

Originally Posted by JJS99

A lot has been spoken about men being unsuccessful because of approach method. Which roughly, there are two approach methods.

1) Numbers game
2) Get to know them, friends first

First off, if you are an attractive man, it doesn't matter which approach you use. Both will prove ultimately successful. Now, that's out of the way.

So, let's look at some pluses and minuses of each method.

1) When you do a numbers game approach, you could express your interest anywhere from talking to them for 10 minutes to a few weeks. But, the point is you are getting your interest across before you know them all that well. That is not ideal, but you are doing two things. Keeping your investment down and your odds up. The problem is that some women won't date men who use this approach. They need to get to know you well first. So, that is rejection. The other obvious problem is that women will reject you based on looks.

2) Friends first I believe maximizes your chances with a particular woman, but unfortunately, your odds are very low. There are a few 'maybe' women who may become attracted to you after knowing you. Unfortunately, you can never tell who they are, so the odds are low. The other disadvantage is you would have then invested some feelings into the woman. You might not be sure about her, and then she said something that made you laugh, something that made you smile. She likes that band you like. Unfortunately, the more you get to know her, the more you will care about the rejection. I know some people will say, that's what dating is anyway. But it's a completely different thing to date someone and break up than to get rejected by a friend. The 2nd is much worse.

So, all in all, it's kind of a no win paradox. But I would definitely say that #1 is the best method by far, as it keeps your odds higher and keeps your investment low.

If you get to know a woman you are not very close with already through your circle of very close friends - you're wasting your time. Here is why:
1. Unlike what I've been told and raised or what the whole myth says, women in America WILL have sex with you if they like you, and they won't be having any emotional breaks or moral restrictions regarding either sex outside of marriage, sex before she gets to be familiar with you, etc. Other words, if you do the approach number-two, she might flirt with you while you attempt to get to know her and all, but she'll be having sex with someone else. This is a deal-breaker for most guys besides those desperate idiots. First-hand experience and my good wits made me see through this and save myself from future naivety and being used. She might like you a lot and might be in the process of seeking for someone else because she doesn't like her "current" boyfriend, but the question is do you like a woman who likes you and wants you to substitute the guy she's banging while getting to know you? I guess not.
2. I can also argue that women see sex as investment in relationship. If she simply wants to get your attention or to make you interested for (staying in) a relationship, she'll give CLEAR singnals that she wants to have sex with you. First-hand experience while dating in America, even at moment when I was breaking up with some women.
3. Take note of the "sex as a means" attitude. I can argue that lots of people are probably going on dates with different people at different time to get to evaluate them, especially women who want a relationship. Having the approach number-two is counter-productive because mindset of most of women is such that if she invests sex, this is probably what determines the winner about who gets to date her long-term. Pushing for sex at the right moment but within first month or within first week or after just a date or two is the key for obtaining relationship, unless you want to go the fool's route.


I don't believe in those stories about having a tough time to meet women and get a date in USA and people who apparently never managed to date someone, etc. I'd say that most people are just minding their own business and being in company of their buddies, having a good time, or generally not trying to date at all. Maybe it's tougher for many folks to get a second date though, it all depends on social skills and such stuff. But I can agree that finding a woman that is what I call "well-raised" and "mannered" is HARD. I guess this part is rather about cultural difference when it comes to dating and general reasoning, but I can completely understand why people are very detached from each other in America. I'd be very detached from anyone I'd date if I was having sex with 2,3, 5 or even more women for either fun or to "test where the relationship is going". What I don't get is why such people actually strive for traditional forms of relationships when they alternatively choose "new approach" that is completely radical and in direct conflict with the old standards.
I think this is the biggest paradox with dating in USA and it's clouded with lots of hypocrisy especially from the women, but I'm very sure that there are lots of hypocrites among men who want to bang people around and land a woman who saves herself for them only and they believe that they won't want to play the field afterwards when they get tired of "playing the family life".

[Dewdroplet76]

Originally Posted by upndown

See, I figure that women will at least say something useful like "when girls I've know have done that, this is why." Rather than just saying "it could be anything!!!!!"

I'm not sure what that means. But if you don't find women's opinions useful - simply ignore them.

Originally Posted by JJS99

Lol. I mean that really is kind of accurate to a degree.

Nothing can really help you that you haven't heard before. For us who are a quite a bit older, we've already heard the 'don't think of it as rejection' and 'just have fun with it' advice.

I think what it comes down to is this place is a distraction, a break from whatever we are doing.

Some of us are whiners (ahem!), some of us are preachy, others are sarcastic, others are players, some pretty even keeled and sympathetic. Just like in real life. Although some would like to believe that what we post and read here has a profound effect on our success with the desired sex, I don't think so.

Some of us like to think of ourselves of a combo of things (preachy, sarcastic, even keeled and sympathetic) - don't box us in!

Truth be told - unless you really know someone personally - it's kind of hard to give advice that's going to be really specific. I mean, if I knew someone in real life and knew that he had a tendency to come on too strong and scare women away - I could tell him that. If he interrupted people too often - I could tell him that. If he spit when he talked or was too wishy washy, etc. - I could tell him that (as nicely as possible). The thing is - if people have real problems dating - there might be a specific reason (or reasons) why - but we really have no way of knowing since most of the time people are unaware of their own mannerisms, shortcomings, etc.

[JJS99]

Originally Posted by Dewdrop93

Truth be told - unless you really know someone personally - it's kind of hard to give advice that's going to be really specific. I mean, if I knew someone in real life and knew that he had a tendency to come on too strong and scare women away - I could tell him that. If he interrupted people too often - I could tell him that. If he spit when he talked or was too wishy washy, etc. - I could tell him that (as nicely as possible). The thing is - if people have real problems dating - there might be a specific reason (or reasons) why - but we really have no way of knowing since most of the time people are unaware of their own mannerisms, shortcomings, etc.

Do you really think it works like that though?

If you could go back in time like Groundhog Day, to exactly a year before the day a man got rejected, play Mr (Mrs.) Lonelyhearts, get to know the woman and the man and give him advice over the course of that year, you really think it would turn out differently?

[Dewdroplet76]

Originally Posted by JJS99

Do you really think it works like that though?

If you could go back in time like Groundhog Day, to exactly a year before the day a man got rejected, play Mr (Mrs.) Lonelyhearts, get to know the woman and the man and give him advice over the course of that year, you really think it would turn out differently?

I don't know - maybe. What I'm saying is - if someone has absolutely no luck in the dating world - there might be a reason. It might be something the person can control - it might not. However, since we don't know anyone here - we would have no idea.

[bulmabriefs144]

Originally Posted by JJS99

A lot has been spoken about men being unsuccessful because of approach method. Which roughly, there are two approach methods.

1) Numbers game
2) Get to know them, friends first

First off, if you are an attractive man, it doesn't matter which approach you use. Both will prove ultimately successful. Now, that's out of the way.

So, let's look at some pluses and minuses of each method.

1) When you do a numbers game approach, you could express your interest anywhere from talking to them for 10 minutes to a few weeks. But, the point is you are getting your interest across before you know them all that well. That is not ideal, but you are doing two things. Keeping your investment down and your odds up. The problem is that some women won't date men who use this approach. They need to get to know you well first. So, that is rejection. The other obvious problem is that women will reject you based on looks.

2) Friends first I believe maximizes your chances with a particular woman, but unfortunately, your odds are very low. There are a few 'maybe' women who may become attracted to you after knowing you. Unfortunately, you can never tell who they are, so the odds are low. The other disadvantage is you would have then invested some feelings into the woman. You might not be sure about her, and then she said something that made you laugh, something that made you smile. She likes that band you like. Unfortunately, the more you get to know her, the more you will care about the rejection. I know some people will say, that's what dating is anyway. But it's a completely different thing to date someone and break up than to get rejected by a friend. The 2nd is much worse.

So, all in all, it's kind of a no win paradox. But I would definitely say that #1 is the best method by far, as it keeps your odds higher and keeps your investment low.

The problem with #1 is it only attracts shallow women. #2 sucks also because the relationship is close but no cigar.

Here's how to win in this game. You can share stupid stuff, like life history crap (this is #2), but the better quality relationship comes from actually sharing your feelings, instead of just your past. Oh, sure, in films, they can get away with some quick crap like a five minute history, but actually real relationships require emotional intimacy.

And this is from someone who had trouble for the longest time with any emotional expression at all. You can go around having long-term friendships, or you can let people past the mask most people set up to hide their true selves. I'd call this option #3, because the other two lead to things resembling relationships, which aren't actually.

[The Illusive Man]

My approach has always been with #1. Never really had enough time for #2. Talk to as many women as you want, develop a template for that approach and then give yourself as many options as possible. There are just too many women and life is too short to consistently use #2.

[augiedogie]

I never said my method was foolproof, or would absolutely work. The way I met my wife was different also (#4?) I was working in an Emergency Room in a Hosp. part time on weekends. All the women had boyfriends, so I asked one if she had any friends. She introduced me to my wife.

[jma501]

Originally Posted by augiedogie

I never said my method was foolproof, or would absolutely work. The way I met my wife was different also (#4?) I was working in an Emergency Room in a Hosp. part time on weekends. All the women had boyfriends, so I asked one if she had any friends. She introduced me to my wife.

Count yourself extremely lucky. Most women would be very reticent to introduce a guy to her friends. It certainly wouldn't work for me.

[flathead4]

Originally Posted by Chemistry_Guy

I agree somewhat but I don't think the women are complete strangers. I think many men meet their SO's through social connections of some sort, including:
-coworkers or friends of coworkers
-parties/events hosted by a mutual friend
-shared participation in an organization/educational institution

I would surmise that a fairly modest percentage of people met their SO via a cold approach. In general, when I have had success with a cold approach it has been in an environment that preselected women that might be compatible with me(college class, a 5K, motorcycle track, etc). Of the five most serious relationships in my life (current gf, ex-wife, 3 ex gfs) I met one in a college class, one at a friend's party, my ex-wife moved into a house on my street, one at a graduate student event, and I was introduced to my current gf by a mutual friend. I don't know if I am typical of the country as a whole, but my closest friends have similar experiences. My best friend met his wife in law school, and I have several close friends that ended up marrying coworkers. None of my family members or closest friends met their SO through a cold approach at a bar or club.

Screwed on four methods.

Originally Posted by nald

If you get to know a woman you are not very close with already through your circle of very close friends - you're wasting your time. Here is why:
1. Unlike what I've been told and raised or what the whole myth says, women in America WILL have sex with you if they like you, and they won't be having any emotional breaks or moral restrictions regarding either sex outside of marriage, sex before she gets to be familiar with you, etc. Other words, if you do the approach number-two, she might flirt with you while you attempt to get to know her and all, but she'll be having sex with someone else. This is a deal-breaker for most guys besides those desperate idiots. First-hand experience and my good wits made me see through this and save myself from future naivety and being used. She might like you a lot and might be in the process of seeking for someone else because she doesn't like her "current" boyfriend, but the question is do you like a woman who likes you and wants you to substitute the guy she's banging while getting to know you? I guess not.
2. I can also argue that women see sex as investment in relationship. If she simply wants to get your attention or to make you interested for (staying in) a relationship, she'll give CLEAR singnals that she wants to have sex with you. First-hand experience while dating in America, even at moment when I was breaking up with some women.
3. Take note of the "sex as a means" attitude. I can argue that lots of people are probably going on dates with different people at different time to get to evaluate them, especially women who want a relationship. Having the approach number-two is counter-productive because mindset of most of women is such that if she invests sex, this is probably what determines the winner about who gets to date her long-term. Pushing for sex at the right moment but within first month or within first week or after just a date or two is the key for obtaining relationship, unless you want to go the fool's route.


I don't believe in those stories about having a tough time to meet women and get a date in USA and people who apparently never managed to date someone, etc. I'd say that most people are just minding their own business and being in company of their buddies, having a good time, or generally not trying to date at all. Maybe it's tougher for many folks to get a second date though, it all depends on social skills and such stuff. But I can agree that finding a woman that is what I call "well-raised" and "mannered" is HARD. I guess this part is rather about cultural difference when it comes to dating and general reasoning, but I can completely understand why people are very detached from each other in America. I'd be very detached from anyone I'd date if I was having sex with 2,3, 5 or even more women for either fun or to "test where the relationship is going". What I don't get is why such people actually strive for traditional forms of relationships when they alternatively choose "new approach" that is completely radical and in direct conflict with the old standards.
I think this is the biggest paradox with dating in USA and it's clouded with lots of hypocrisy especially from the women, but I'm very sure that there are lots of hypocrites among men who want to bang people around and land a woman who saves herself for them only and they believe that they won't want to play the field afterwards when they get tired of "playing the family life".

Really? Because there have been plenty of those stories posted on this very forum.

[nokiddin]

Originally Posted by Ro2113

We're not dogs and cats. Poor analogy.

oh grow up, if you can't understand the use of metaphors, you likewise have problems as to insight and self-reflection. i could have used betas and alphas, but alas not all are alphas... so guess that wouldn't sink in either.