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dewdrop is just looking for any excuse to judge you harshly , all under the guise of pretty bland stock n trade advice I might add
How am I judging anyone harshly? I'm simply stating a fact - we all have control over our own lives. If you don't want to change anything - then nothing will change.
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Originally Posted by jma501
She didn't judge me harshly or otherwise. I just didn't think what she said made sense nor was she forthcoming on clarity for said statements.
I'm not sure what you are looking for. I don't actually know you so I'm not sure how I can be more specific. You have said that you've never tried - and I'm telling you that if you never try, you'll never get anywhere. What specifics are you looking for?
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Originally Posted by jma501
I justify my inaction from clear signs from women.
You can justify anything you want to - but it's not going to change anything. And the signs you are referring to don't seem to be clear.
Here's the thing. I talk to people. Yes, I'm married so I'm not looking for anything - but I've always talked to people. I'll talk to people in line, I'll talk to people around me, if I feel like saying something - I will. And most of the time - people are very friendly and a nice conversation will ensue. Now - if I was single, perhaps something would come out of one of these conversations. Maybe not. But at least it would have been a possibility.
How am I judging anyone harshly? I'm simply stating a fact - we all have control over our own lives. If you don't want to change anything - then nothing will change.
I'm not sure what you are looking for. I don't actually know you so I'm not sure how I can be more specific. You have said that you've never tried - and I'm telling you that if you never try, you'll never get anywhere. What specifics are you looking for?
You can justify anything you want to - but it's not going to change anything. And the signs you are referring to don't seem to be clear.
Here's the thing. I talk to people. Yes, I'm married so I'm not looking for anything - but I've always talked to people. I'll talk to people in line, I'll talk to people around me, if I feel like saying something - I will. And most of the time - people are very friendly and a nice conversation will ensue. Now - if I was single, perhaps something would come out of one of these conversations. Maybe not. But at least it would have been a possibility.
I find the signals extremely clear especially since they have nasty looks on their faces when they turn away. I have seen this many times. Why would I approach or start a conversation when clearly women do not want me too.
I find the signals extremely clear especially since they have nasty looks on their faces when they turn away. I have seen this many times. Why would I approach or start a conversation when clearly women do not want me too.
First of all - I have a feeling that you aren't very good at interpreting these things. But secondly, I'm not telling you to start a conversation with women you catch staring at you. I'll give you an example. I was in the butcher shop the other day and I was waiting in line at the cash register. The cash register area is on top of the pastry case. The guy in front of me was buying some pastries. I asked the woman behind the counter what kind they were - if they had marzipan in them - because I love marzipan. I told the guy in front of me that I was blaming him for buying some because now I wanted to buy some. He then started telling me that he was buying them because one of the guys that he used to work with would bring them in all the time - but he didn't work there anymore so now he had to buy them! It was a very pleasant conversation. So, once again, I'm not telling you to hit on random women. I'm telling you to be open to the people around you. There's a difference.
So, you are really thinking that his PR initiative is the first time anyone has ever done something to encourage girls? Not a reaction to decades of pressure -- the first 10 or 20 years of which were from women?
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I think every step of the way, there were good men who supported the women in their lives who wanted to affect change just like there must be good women who support the men in their lives when change is necessary.
Of course! And good mothers, and good fathers, and good bff's, and good strangers who hear an idea and think, 'You know, that's right!'
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I feel that this whole "women folk did it all by their lonesome so men who need help had better buckup and find their own way" spiel
Wait, what?! Where dd you ever hear anything like that? Not from me.... are you hallucinating text?
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and then after those women have been relatively successful in their cause, they tell others who seem to have struggles to fend for themselves because they had to go it alone or whatever...when they truly didnt; or actually, couldnt have. It seems to be more of a rationalization to avoid being proactive more than anything in my eyes.
Oh is that it? You think women don't put enough effort into helping men to change? What do you think about this thread? A bunch of women putting hours of their time into counseling a bunch of men who drag their heels and insist nothing can ever change. It looks to me like women really want to help men, and are willing to volunteer a lot of their time and energy to do it.
What sort of help do you want? Can you put into words what you would like to see happen, that isn't happening yet?
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Empowering one's self is an oxymoron. If you dont have power to do what you want, then you cant empower yourself. You may only be granted power by those who have it..
You know, that sounds to me like a myth created by someone who hopes to keep you ignorant of history, and feeling powerless. I know it seems true. But reality contradicts it.
I think you must be very young. I am old; I have seen these things happen. I am not talking about theory here. I am describing what I have seen with my own eyes, over decades.
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Hope can be painful. It can be scary. If you feel that you are powerless, there is a feeling of safety in that. You don't have to be responsible. You don't have to risk trying to create something different and having it not go the way you planned.
Same goes for the guys saying how no women will ever want them. They are hiding behind that belief.
First of all - I have a feeling that you aren't very good at interpreting these things. But secondly, I'm not telling you to start a conversation with women you catch staring at you. I'll give you an example. I was in the butcher shop the other day and I was waiting in line at the cash register. The cash register area is on top of the pastry case. The guy in front of me was buying some pastries. I asked the woman behind the counter what kind they were - if they had marzipan in them - because I love marzipan. I told the guy in front of me that I was blaming him for buying some because now I wanted to buy some. He then started telling me that he was buying them because one of the guys that he used to work with would bring them in all the time - but he didn't work there anymore so now he had to buy them! It was a very pleasant conversation. So, once again, I'm not telling you to hit on random women. I'm telling you to be open to the people around you. There's a difference.
So, you are really thinking that his PR initiative is the first time anyone has ever done something to encourage girls? Not a reaction to decades of pressure -- the first 10 or 20 years of which were from women?
Better question: Did you really read anywhere where I said this was the first time anyone has done anything to encourage girls?...lol...pressure doesnt lead anywhere if the powerholders you're pressuring dont react and agree to conform to that pressure. Or if they do like the govt's of Syria, Lybia, or North Korea and suppress whoever they believe is applying such pressure.
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Of course! And good mothers, and good fathers, and good bff's, and good strangers who hear an idea and think, 'You know, that's right!
Uumm right...change takes good people working together...which uh, was my whole point..so whats the issue here?..lol....
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Wait, what?! Where dd you ever hear anything like that? Not from me.... are you hallucinating text?
Oh is that it? You think women don't put enough effort into helping men to change? What do you think about this thread? A bunch of women putting hours of their time into counseling a bunch of men who drag their heels and insist nothing can ever change. It looks to me like women really want to help men, and are willing to volunteer a lot of their time and energy to do it.
What sort of help do you want? Can you put into words what you would like to see happen, that isn't happening yet?
Getting a little histrionic there arent you..lol...You seem to be used to a finger pointing style of dialogue. But firstly, Id like us to dial back the accusatory language you seem to be slipping into and out of. Remove this mythical "you" word you keep directing at me very specifically in every other sentence and try to view it more objectively. And moreover resist the basic urge to marginalize my concerns about men's self awareness per the topic of the thread by trying to relegate my opinion to being that of some lone, isolated fringe voice. Then realize that there is a population of men just as there are in any other population, that have their own body issues, whether it be me, my brother, your neighbor's son, my uncle, your uncle or otherwise. Its clear, even on City-data alone that there are men who are not being actively and collectively supported nor reassured of their worth by someone. And some women here definitely DO offer constructive advice and support to those men <that liliflower chick is one of them..I forget her full screenname>, just as some men here offer support to women who seek another perspective.
And I applaud those men and women..Thats all the better -- icing on the cake if you will -- but thats obviously not enough, because if online banter were supposed to pass for a catalyst for change and a support network, then Michael Bloomberg's initiative and any number of the other support campaigns for young women wouldnt even be necessary. Those women could just log onto City-Data, have us tell them that the need to man up and get some confidence and they could be on their way. Yet those types of low standards arent what we hold women's empowerment campaigns to.
So it doesnt matter what I in particular want. Its about where we want to go as a society in helping others feel the best they can about their individual selves BEFORE they go apesh*t and commit a tragedy or kill themselves etc; at which time we tend to just throw them under the bus and wash our hands of them. And to me, at least, its about whether we truly believe we each have that obligation to make an organized effort to raise the confidence of our young people or whether it just becomes lipservice when action becomes inconvenient or when we dont have some self serving interest at stake.
Which is why I said that there arent any programs or initiatives by the collective that rally around men who struggle with confidence issues. Because right now, there dont seem to be.
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You know, that sounds to me like a myth created by someone who hopes to keep you ignorant of history, and feeling powerless. I know it seems true. But reality contradicts it.
Of course it seems true, because it is true and it applies to every aspect of life, including yours. None of us can empower ourselves without the help of others, or else we'd already be the one's in power.
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I think you must be very young. I am old; I have seen these things happen. I am not talking about theory here. I am describing what I have seen with my own eyes, over decades.
yes...that surely must be it...my perspective varies from yours so of course you have typed several pages dialogue conversing with an 8 year old. If that makes sense to you, then go with it I guess.
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Hope can be painful. It can be scary. If you feel that you are powerless, there is a feeling of safety in that. You don't have to be responsible. You don't have to risk trying to create something different and having it not go the way you planned.
Same goes for the guys saying how no women will ever want them. They are hiding behind that belief.
sigh...I guess..but to me, hope and change and all that are excellent abstract concepts, but Im talking about actual targeted campaigns and initiatives, sponsored by a collective, specifically designed to empower young men (and young women respectively) and instill the confidence in them that they lack.. Thats all.
Last edited by soletaire; 10-19-2013 at 07:13 PM..
Gah, I can't read all that ranting. My eyes kept glazing over. Read the last bit, though, and it sounds good to me. I really think you are right, and that young men need help.
Why would a man go through life believing no woman could ever be interested in him? What could he do to change this?
Why? Some guys truly believe that no woman would or could ever be interested in them, especially if they've been handed a healthy dosage of rejection consistently in their lives. The smart men learn to enjoy life, deal with rejection and live it up whether a woman is involved in it or not. Positive vibes give off positive results.
Some men don't want to change the solitude they have learned to accept. Other guys spend hours changing themselves in vain in order to gain favour with women. They fail in essence with the opposite sex because the changes they've made are false and pretentious. These guys aren't being true to themselves or doing it for themselves.
What I've learned that works for me is having a healthy mind, a healthy body and a passion for an art or activity that makes you feel good about yourself. I could care less whether a woman is interested in that because it's what makes me tick. Learning that is the first step in finding true happiness and satisfaction in with oneself.
People, not just women will want to become part of that. It up to you how you share it.
Gah, I can't read all that ranting. My eyes kept glazing over. Read the last bit, though, and it sounds good to me. I really think you are right, and that young men need help.
you asked me like 7 questions in one post and then didnt feel like reading the response...lol...this aint twitter thats for sure so if you were expecting me to join your five sentence long back and fourth finger pointing exchange, I guess today wont be the day..I honestly cant knock you at all though, because I got tired of writing about 2 posts ago...cant expect everyone to have the attention span to focus long enough to read the answers to their questions in the age of 140 character posts...so kudos to you for keeping up longer than I expected...let me stop typing before anybody passes out again reading this post too..lol
Last edited by soletaire; 10-19-2013 at 10:39 PM..
Why? Some guys truly believe that no woman would or could ever be interested in them, especially if they've been handed a healthy dosage of rejection consistently in their lives. The smart men learn to enjoy life, deal with rejection and live it up whether a woman is involved in it or not. Positive vibes give off positive results.
Some men don't want to change the solitude they have learned to accept. Other guys spend hours changing themselves in vain in order to gain favour with women. They fail in essence with the opposite sex because the changes they've made are false and pretentious. These guys aren't being true to themselves or doing it for themselves.
What I've learned that works for me is having a healthy mind, a healthy body and a passion for an art or activity that makes you feel good about yourself. I could care less whether a woman is interested in that because it's what makes me tick. Learning that is the first step in finding true happiness and satisfaction in with oneself.
People, not just women will want to become part of that. It up to you how you share it.
I've learned this myself. I am a photo artist with a local art association, I work out three times a week, and last Sunday I ran my first 5k.
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