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Well, I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree then, but I also agree with Vintage_girl in that the victimization is ridiculous. But people are going to do what they want, no matter the consequences. Also, I find it funny how you say "anti-hookup and conservative values" yeah, and it is because of those things I know my daughter won't deal with all kinds of numerous STDs/unwanted pregnancies/crappy men just wanting her for sex and the like. Nor is it as if I had a son I wouldn't impart the same values. Unlike most guys he would grow up to respect women and treat them right.
Well, I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree then, but I also agree with Vintage_girl in that the victimization is ridiculous. But people are going to do what they want, no matter the consequences. Also, I find it funny how you say "anti-hookup and conservative values" yeah, and it is because of those things I know my daughter won't deal with all kinds of numerous STDs/unwanted pregnancies/crappy men just wanting her for sex and the like.
Meh the only ridiculous victimization I see is blaming others for what one chooses to say and do to another.
" But people are going to do what they want, no matter the consequences. " exactly the point guys are doing this because they want to and there are no to little consequences so why not especially when gals are going to be held responsible and faulted for what guys said and how guys acted.
Egh likely your daughter could deal with plenty of other issues like blaming herself if she is raped as anti-hookup and conservative values tend to do that.
Meh the only ridiculous victimization I see is blaming others for what one chooses to say and do to another.
" But people are going to do what they want, no matter the consequences. " exactly the point guys are doing this because they want to and there are no to little consequences so why not especially when gals are going to be held responsible and faulted for what guys said and how guys acted.
Egh likely your daughter could deal with plenty of other issues like blaming herself if she is raped as anti-hookup and conservative values tend to do that.
Wow, you sure did put words in my mouth. Rape is NEVER excusable. But if my daughter was the type to dress like a tramp, go to bars/clubs and have promiscuous sex and she called me to complain that guys didn't respect her I'd say "Well, acting like that, what do you expect?". Same if I had a son that went to bars/clubs having random hook ups. I'd also tell him "Well, what kind of women do you expect to attract?". If he got an STD or got a girl pregnant from doing such would it be all that surprising?
Actions have consequences, and men/women engaging in such behavior typically do not end well.
Wow, you sure did put words in my mouth. Rape is NEVER excusable. But if my daughter was the type to dress like a tramp, go to bars/clubs and have promiscuous sex and she called me to complain that guys didn't respect her I'd say "Well, acting like that, what do you expect?". Same if I had a son that went to bars/clubs having random hook ups. I'd also tell him "Well, what kind of women do you expect to attract?". If he got an STD or got a girl pregnant from doing such would it be all that surprising?
Actions have consequences, and men/women engaging in such behavior typically do not end well.
I didn't put any words in your mouth. When did I state that you said rape is excusable? Oh that's right never.
Stating "anti-hookup and conservative" values that blame gals for what guys choose to do and say when they sexualize them tends to lead to rape victims blaming themselves doesn't mean that I'm saying you said rape is excusable. Its saying such values promote and condone rape victim self-blame. Seems more like you're putting words in my mouth.
Your daughter/son analogy have quite a telling double standard for the daughter's actions it's the guys don't respect her yet for the son's actions it's that he's attracting gals that don't respect themselves. So it seems a gal doing this = she's not worthy of respect while a guy doing this = getting gals not worthy of respect. Not unsurprising considering the values are male ideal of evading responsibility for sexuality and here you were with neither gender gets much sympathy from me spiel.
Actions do have consequences however there's a difference between being responsible for your actions and being responsible for actions done to you.
I didn't put any words in your mouth. When did I state that you said rape is excusable? Oh that's right never.
You implied that by saying " Egh likely your daughter could deal with plenty of other issues like blaming herself if she is raped as anti-hookup and conservative values tend to do that."
As if just because I have stressed to my daughter how bad it would be for her to go out and have random hook ups with no commitment and teaching her to have dignity and value herself and her body I'm somehow "condoning rape". Which is most certainly not the case.
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Stating "anti-hookup and conservative" values that blame gals for what guys choose to do and say when they sexualize them tends to lead to rape victims blaming themselves doesn't mean that I'm saying you said rape is excusable. Its saying such values promote and condone rape victim self-blame. Seems more like you're putting words in my mouth.
That's funny, because I'm pretty sure my raising her and stressing to her to not engage in such activities has no doubt gone a long way in her NOT getting an STD/Unwanted pregnancy/dealing with men just looking for sex. Which is a win in my book. If you want to somehow twist that into promoting and condoning rape and self-blame then I don't know what to tell you. All I know is if my daughter acted like so many other young women I see chances are quite high she'd be dealing with a lot more crap than she is.
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Your daughter/son analogy have quite a telling double standard for the daughter's actions it's the guys don't respect her yet for the son's actions it's that he's attracting gals that don't respect themselves. So it seems a gal doing this = she's not worthy of respect while a guy doing this = getting gals not worthy of respect. Not unsurprising considering the values are male ideal of evading responsibility for sexuality and here you were with neither gender gets much sympathy from me spiel.
Perhaps I misworded what I meant. My point is, regardless of gender, anyone who engages in such activities usually lead to a bad end that I would not want my son/daughter to have to deal with. But if they did anyway, well, it is there life, they just shouldn't act shocked that bad things will happen to them because of it. Any man/woman doing such is not going to attract good men/women, and as such should stay away. I remember a cousin of mine was big into the hookup scene, when I found out he ended up with the clap I laughed and said "serves him right".
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Actions do have consequences however there's a difference between being responsible for your actions and being responsible for actions done to you.
But depending on ones actions can either make the actions done to you more/less worse than they would if they DID NOT ENGAGE IN SUCH BEHAVIOR IN THE FIRST PLACE. I really don't see why this seems hard for you to understand? If you lie down with fleas should you be surprised when you end up having them?
You implied that by saying " Egh likely your daughter could deal with plenty of other issues like blaming herself if she is raped as anti-hookup and conservative values tend to do that."
As if just because I have stressed to my daughter how bad it would be for her to go out and have random hook ups with no commitment and teaching her to have dignity and value herself and her body I'm somehow "condoning rape". Which is most certainly not the case.
That's quite a reaching implication since nowhere do I mention what YOU I mention what a subset of victim-blaming values tend to do. So it seems you're the one putting words in my mouth. I'm unsure why you're quoting condoning rape as I haven't used those words. Are you putting words in my mouth again?
No it's because you blame gals for what guys choose to do and say to them in regards to sexual harassment that you're condoning and promoting victim-blaming. I've repeated stated this and this is most certainly the case.
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Originally Posted by PeaceAndLove42
That's funny, because I'm pretty sure my raising her and stressing to her to not engage in such activities has no doubt gone a long way in her NOT getting an STD/Unwanted pregnancy/dealing with men just looking for sex. Which is a win in my book. If you want to somehow twist that into promoting and condoning rape and self-blame then I don't know what to tell you. All I know is if my daughter acted like so many other young women I see chances are quite high she'd be dealing with a lot more crap than she is.
I don't have to twist anything. You placing gals for what guys choose to do and say sexually is enough on how that is a tendency is blaming victims for getting raped. It's not about you teaching your daughter not to engage in such activities as I haven't even mentioned that. Show me where I talk about teaching your daughter not to do this = condoning and promoting rape and self-blame. Oh that's right because you can't since I'm talking about you blaming gals for what guys choose to do and say when they get sexually harassed is reminiscent of blaming gals for getting raped.
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Originally Posted by PeaceAndLove42
Perhaps I misworded what I meant. My point is, regardless of gender, anyone who engages in such activities usually lead to a bad end that I would not want my son/daughter to have to deal with. But if they did anyway, well, it is there life, they just shouldn't act shocked that bad things will happen to them because of it. Any man/woman doing such is not going to attract good men/women, and as such should stay away. I remember a cousin of mine was big into the hookup scene, when I found out he ended up with the clap I laughed and said "serves him right".
Meh I think you worded it quite right considering the anti-hookup and conservative values tend to have a **** double standard. While you might have a "serves you right" attitude it seems you reserve a worthy of respect attitude solely on the gals sexuality not the guys. Basically seems for you it's: gals who do this aren't worthy of respect and guys who do this don't get gals worthy of respect.
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Originally Posted by PeaceAndLove42
But depending on ones actions can either make the actions done to you more/less worse than they would if they DID NOT ENGAGE IN SUCH BEHAVIOR IN THE FIRST PLACE. I really don't see why this seems hard for you to understand? If you lie down with fleas should you be surprised when you end up having them?
Gals have already repeatedly stated being cat-called regardless of their clothing so this isn't necessarily something gals can control as you already stated "people are going to do what they want, no matter the consequences" and in this case they have no to little consequences and often don't even have to be responsible for their behavior.
I don't see why it seems hard for you to understand that I'm not talking about being surprised towards the reaction especially when I shown none. Show me where I state, suggest, imply, or mention surprise at the reaction. Oh that's right you can't because I didn't.
I did state it's illogical to blame someone for what someone else chooses to do and say to them especially when the person is doing it because they want to, likely won't have any consequences, and more likely won't be held accountability for it.
Seems like we keep going around in circles. We'll never see eye to eye, and that's fine. I will stick with my beliefs and you yours. At least I can sleep comfortably knowing that the "conservative values" you hate so much has helped my daughter grow into an amazing, intelligent, responsible woman that has kept her out of all kinds of crap she could likely be in otherwise.
Seems like we keep going around in circles. We'll never see eye to eye, and that's fine. I will stick with my beliefs and you yours. At least I can sleep comfortably knowing that the "conservative values" you hate so much has helped my daughter grow into an amazing, intelligent, responsible woman that has kept her out of all kinds of crap she could likely be in otherwise.
Yeah I'll never see eye to eye with blaming others for what one chooses to say and do to another. I'll stick to my beliefs of responsibility and accountability you stick with your victim-blaming it's quite popular hence why many gals don't report getting raped, beaten, sexually assaulted, and you know all the stuff the perpetrator isn't 100% at fault for choosing to do.
I don't hate conservative values. I dislike conservative values with double standards that blame gals for what guys choose to do and say to them.
Meh I'll see how much help it does if she gets raped and starts blaming herself. Likely you'll never know if she does since beliefs like yours tends to keep many from speaking.
For example a woman walks by and the men that are on the street yell out stuff like "DAM! Can I take a picture?" Or, "She knows she bad!" "How ya doin beautiful" etc...
Would it make you feel desired since this reaction is almost always genuine? Because you are so pretty that these men start salivating like dogs and can't help but holler? Or would you feel disgusted that a bunch of young men would holler at you like that? Please be honest. I see a lot of women smile and react positively, whether these men are ghetto urban youth or straight homeless people.
If I was a woman I would eat that harmless chatter like that up. NOW...if he/they won't leave it be and become boisterous and obnoxious asking for phone numbers, rubbing your hand or arm and won't take NO for an answer...I could see a married or taken woman getting POed.
For example a woman walks by and the men that are on the street yell out stuff like "DAM! Can I take a picture?" Or, "She knows she bad!" "How ya doin beautiful" etc...
Would it make you feel desired since this reaction is almost always genuine? Because you are so pretty that these men start salivating like dogs and can't help but holler? Or would you feel disgusted that a bunch of young men would holler at you like that? Please be honest. I see a lot of women smile and react positively, whether these men are ghetto urban youth or straight homeless people.
I worked as a sports reporter and was down on the field for football games and had to walk in front of or behind the players a lot. I also took still photos on the field. Now, if I were thinned skinned and took at those remarks seriously, it's highly unlikely I would have been able to do my job, not just in football, but all sports as well. I just ignored it. I got it from up in the stands as well.
Occasionally, I would make a remark if I was standing still behind them for a time and someone would yell, "Hey Babe" I would respond, "does this look like a rattle?" Holding the microphone. I've also said something equal to what they were saying back at them. This is only because you see the same people every weekend. But for the most part I never responded and acted like I never heard them.
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