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thank you for the rep, I cannot rep you anymore, you know the drill, anyway, I like your idea....why don't you start a conversation/thread, discussing a topic your interested in?
I love every aspect of being single except for one thing.........remakingthebedonlaundryday ! I don't mind cooking, cleaning, or doing actual laundry, but puttingthesheets and blankets back on after washing them really sucks.
It's that form fitting bottom sheet, the one that you have to tuck over the corners of the mattress, that zings me almost every time. Somehow, I usually manage to start off with the darn thing in the wrong direction, then of course, the top end is several inches too short to fit over the mattress, then we start over again. Amazing how much a warm sheet just out of the dryer seems to have shrunk, and getting those corners just right is so tricky.
And not every single, middle aged man is a sickly, selfish, manchild looking for a cook/housekeeper/nurse.
Did I say they were? I said upthread I am a woman and relaying what I hear from friends and family, as well as what I've run into myself. Way too many Baby Boomer men out there looking for someone to "take care of" them. I'm not interested in that. If someone wants that, they can look elsewhere. That is not saying that all men are like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by homina12
Lilac110, Altguy's post got a pretty quick response from you.
Not really. Over two hours after he posted it is not quick, and this was the first thread I saw when I logged on after being offline for six hours because I was busy last night.
Quote:
Originally Posted by homina12
I agree with your take on things, but in contrast to your take on the risks men represent, it seems a bit curious. In my experience men who take their responsibilities to their children seriously or who follow what the court decrees in terms of settlements and future support payments (non deadbeats) often get shredded pretty severely in divorce. If a man has experienced that once, he might be wise to be cautious entering into another marriage that could put him at risk again. I think he's speaking from some pretty raw emotion when he says a future wife would "surely leave me and take everything", but the only part that's clearly questionable is the "surely" part and the "evrything" comment. If his experience leaves him fearful that he'll be hurt emotionally and financially if he marries again, is that really off base? Is that really different from the comments several women here have made and which you support?
I am well aware of the reasons men might choose to remain single, and I mentioned that upthread, too.
Doesn't really matter to me what people choose to do. If Atl wants to remain fearful of being taken to the cleaners, that's his business, just like it's mine to have criteria for what I consider marriage-worthy, which I also explained upthread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by homina12
Really, it's not all that extreme, reading this thread, to wonder if women who see men as a potential burden bound up in a childish level of neediness really like those same men. Why would you like or respect them? I get that you're talking in the context of marriage and the particular obligations and such that marriage entails, but can you really like or respect a man as a friend if you believe that he's such a mess? If all of the women you know feel the same way?
There's a saying, "I want a man in my life, not in my house."
With my last relationship, we saw each other a couple of times a week max. A number of my friends said they wanted a relationship like that. Love, commitment, but not the domestic stuff because they felt, correctly so IMHO, that men tend to expect that stuff of women. You might not like hearing that, but it's true, especially among Boomers. A lot of them do indeed expect women to cook and clean. Not all, but many, if not most, among that generation.
Heck, even my ex-SO, a Gen-Xer through and through, used to drop hints, if not outright tell me, he wanted me to cook more. Sorry, no. I can count the number of times on both hands that he actually cooked for me in seven years. I knew that if I lived with him, it would be just like when I was married, with the daily question of "what do you want to do for dinner," which translates into "what are you making or am I calling for a pizza/we going out?" I also saw what a clutterbug my ex-SO was. He was as bad as my ex-husband. As a major reason for my divorce was that my ex-husband, after a stint in the Army and a deployment with the National Guard, apparently forgot how to do laundry and clean a bathroom the day he moved in with me and seemed to have a philosophy of "no surface shall remain clear and junk-free," I couldn't have lived with my ex-SO either.
Hence some of my aforementioned criteria for marriage: He must be neat or we must have the resources for a housekeeper, and he must be willing and able to cook. Also, probably not going to marry someone whose mother was a SAHM. Men whose mothers were SAHMs tend to have unrealistic expectations of working wives.
I'm actually pretty hard-pressed to think of any marriage or relationship in which men didn't start slacking off on the housekeeping and cooking once a woman moved in or they got married. The ones where they don't are the same ones where she is the primary, if not only, breadwinner, and he either works a home-based business or is a SAHD. But when both partners work, in every case I know of, moving in or marrying a man has resulted in more housework for the woman and less for the man. Blows my mind actually. What did these guys do when they lived alone?
Same here, but not just with men, but with my girl friends as well. I'm a loner, and sometimes I have to keep them at bay, and tell them, no...remember when we were young and we had to be with our girlfriends all the time, well, that wasn't for me, didn't enjoy it, to much of a good thing, yanno.
So, it isn't just about feeling this way about men, but I will say this, I love men, but find it necessary to be with my girlfriends, there is a bond there that cannot be compared, and I'm unable to explain it, but we all get it....
Yanno, I was dating a guy, the last man I dated, and told him, "yanno, it's not just about sex, there is something about a relationship that can be spiritual without the sex, if it is a good match. But he didn't get that.....
How do you feel about that?
oft times I used to say, I wish to find a man, who was like some of my girl friends...that closeness, to know without knowing....to feel without feeling....to share what we feel....like my girl friends and I do.
That's exactly what I was saying about not wanting my girlfriends up in my face all the time any more than a man. I need my down time and a lot of it.
No, it's not just about the sex, but it would be nice to have a guy friend that there is a lot of horizontal movement and of course it can't just be any guy friend there has to be chemistry. I've dated men without it becoming a sexual relationship, we had great fun, but it just wasn't going to ever head anywhere past him just enjoying my company and vice versa. As far as a relationship turning to a sorta FWB, I've only ever had that kind of relationship with someone I've actually dated though, so there in lies the rub. Sigh at this age, by the time I've developed the friendship, you're darn near in the grave. I'm screwed and not in the good way.
Now on that last bit, are we going to have to pull out candles and start humming here in a minute? you know I'm kidding.
I'm sorry you took offense to my feelings....no one is pointing fingers at YOU, and I don't believe women who you date are going to look at you like this....
I'm 65 years old and have no desire to enter into a relationship again, and If I were a man, I'd say the very same thing.
Why do you take this so personal and offensive, is what I'd like to know.
We've said over and over and over again,
we are not discussing ALLLLLLLLLL Men, we are discussing our feelings, due to our experiences, what else could we relate to...?
and no, I don't hate men, never have,never will matter of fact, I grew up with boys and probably understand them a whole lot better then you think I do. I even worked an all man's job for 18 years, b/c it paid well, and was very well liked....so, please don't get all offended or offensive to your sex....it isn't about YOU....
we've lived it, tried it, it didn't work for us, I had two very bad marriages, and do not have a good marriage under my belt, do I think all men are like this NO!
Now, it's pretty common knowlege that men get sick and die before women, I don't know why, but it is true. I have many friends who were loyal to their husbands and care givers to the very end. However, they say, they would not do it again. Period, that is not offensive in the least, but more so, an extremely difficult task to perform when someone is sick, weighs much more then you do, wears diapers, and are angry or loosing it mentally, and trys to hit them.
And before we go any further, I'm not saying every marriage or man is like this....so please, but what I'm saying is, when you get older, especially women, they don't want to go thru it again...compromise, marriage, dating, getting along, and giving in is very very very hard work. That again, is nothing personal about or against men, I say the same thing for women....any relationship takes patience, there is always someone who gives so much more to keep the peace, and a whole lot of giving up and compromise, and if you can't understand that, then I guess I need not go any further.
I'm sorry if you don't....but even if I had a good marriage, I wouldn't want to be with someone again....and that's ok, I'm not looking for your approval, nor am I bringing the whole male population down...it is in fact, my true feelings...so, like it or not, it's my right as a human being. I gave, and now it is my turn to live my life as I see fit, and certainly think and feel the way I do.
I have a whole lot of male friends, ones that I haven't slept with, they are just that, friends, and I can tell you honestly, those friendships are extremely valuable to me....very spiritual and fulfilling, but marriage, living with someone, even a woman, I could not do, and years ago, I did live with a girl friend, we were not gay, but friends....
anyway, I'm sorry your offended at this, but these people are allowed to feel as they do, they've worked hard all their lives, raised kids, birthed kids, washed clothes, some of us used to iron...clothes....so, what I'm trying to say is, I'm really very shocked by your inability to just read, and be able to allow others to feel as they do, without taking offense or anger or feeling like the whole male population needs to be defended by you b/c we hate all men? Not true...
and whenever someone comes into a thread like this and blows off steam and accuses others for their feelings I have to wonder, what is behind their defenseive mode, why are they taking posts in threads by strangers so personal...to the point of feeling they have to become so defensive and are so irritated? I don't get that....seriously.
You are unable to view a bigger picture, rather then just saying, ok, that is the way they feel, not all women feel that way, but that's ok, nothing wrong with them, it is simply how they feel and if they are ok, I'm ok with it....
but to get all personally involved like we personally attacked You or something, I mean, REALLY?
Cremebrulee,
Don't be concerned that the thread you started, which many people contributed to, irritated me. I don't believe it was your intent and you can't control where a thread goes once you start it, but this thread turned into a lengthy discussion of why marriage in middle age or later is bad for women. Sure, there were other things mentioned, like not having to negotiate around different interests or the value of solitude, which are benefits that both men and women share. But a good number of the comments as to why marriage is a bad idea for middle aged women were about the frailty and neediness of baby boomer (or older) men.
That bugged me on two levels. The first I covered. The second I alluded to, but maybe not so clearly.
When issues about or between men and women get discussed here they're usually pretty onesided. In my experience, women do a better job of making the case that behavior people attribute to WOMEN in general is really behavior that individual women engage in. When people attribute behavior to MEN, often times the response is "well we're dudes, what do you expect" or if a woman is making the comment about men's behavior, something like "b****** be crazy" comes back from men.
It seems to me that women are targeted more often, by a wide margin, but when men are the target the men here too often roll over or over-react. Not exclusively, but often. In that sense, my response here is about more than this thread, though everything I wrote about this thread is my honest opinion.
In this thread I felt that middle aged men got treated pretty shabbily ans so I took the opportunity to respond with something more thoughtful than the examples above.
So back at you. Don't take it personal that I disagree with your estimate of what happened here. I respect your take on things, I stated my take, and they differ.
I did the same thing, I got the car, I felt he worked very hard for everything and I left him have it all...just wanted out of the marriage....signed the papers and even gave him all of the furniture and the savings....nothing wrong with that, rather that then be known as a gold digger who cleaned out my husband b/c I was bitter or used my son to hurt him, no way. It was over, we were ok with that...
My attorney didn't want me to sign off on his social security but I did....I didn't want to use our mistake as a way to gain....I gained enough, and learned a lot....and sorry to say, he married a woman who is truly evil...a real nut case and I do feel sorry for him.
I dont understand when you say you signed off on his social security. I dont that that is even possible, do you mean on his pension? You get social security on his earnings as a divorced spouse, and it has nothing to do with what he or his wife gets.
I also only left with my animals, and when the house sold, took 50% of that. Left him his military pension, which I certainly felt I deserved, but he said to my face that I didnt deserve it. I didnt fight it, I just wanted out.
well, by his list, it seems to me, that is something he made up from hearing it from some one else....
we touched on 2 or 3 on his list jokingly, but I didn't read any woman's post in here to say all those things or any man's post in here....I believe there are other reason'sbehindhisanger...sorry to say...
Anger is not the correct word. Disillusionment might be more like it, along with, I must admit, a bit of bitterness due to a recent unpleasant experience during which I was taken advantage of. While my list was presented with a bit of humor intended, it was also very accurate. At one time or another, every single point on it was expressed at one time either in a previous thread on this, the Retirement, or Psychology forums, or else some other source, or in person face to face. Could have made the list much longer if desired. Going the other way, gripes about older women that upset men could have been produced, equally as long. The age old battle of the sexes goes on. I just hope that in our modern society we have not forgotten how to love each other.
I don't believe it was your intent and you can't control where a thread goes
once you start it, but this thread turned into a lengthy discussion of why
marriage in middle age or later is bad for women
Homina
I hope you understand that we or I am speaking for me personally. Why marriage for ME at MY age is not bad but not something I want for myself and why I feel this way based on my life. Just so happens that a lot of us older women feel the same way. I am not saying in general that marriage later in life is bad for women or that all older men want taken care of.
Funny thing I was looking at the marriage license issued in my county the other day of the 5, 3 were couples 60 or over.
Would like to add an amusing, upbeat comment on the more than just a few, of the men and women that have absolutely, positively insisted that never, ever, under any circumstances, would they marry again, or for that matter, ever even become involved with a member of the opposite sex, even casually. They have just quit and given up, for whatever reason. Then one fine day, suddenly and without warning, in some unlikely place, they Meet Somebody. Cupid bends his bow, lets fly, and his arrow strikes home. Not all that much later, they are announcing their engagement. LOL. Now lets see, if I had just 10 bucks for every time I have seen this happen during my lifetime, where could I go on vaction, paid for with the money?
Don't be concerned that the thread you started, which many people contributed to, irritated me. I don't believe it was your intent and you can't control where a thread goes once you start it, but this thread turned into a lengthy discussion of why marriage in middle age or later is bad for women. Sure, there were other things mentioned, like not having to negotiate around different interests or the value of solitude, which are benefits that both men and women share. But a good number of the comments as to why marriage is a bad idea for middle aged women were about the frailty and neediness of baby boomer (or older) men.
That bugged me on two levels. The first I covered. The second I alluded to, but maybe not so clearly.
When issues about or between men and women get discussed here they're usually pretty onesided. In my experience, women do a better job of making the case that behavior people attribute to WOMEN in general is really behavior that individual women engage in. When people attribute behavior to MEN, often times the response is "well we're dudes, what do you expect" or if a woman is making the comment about men's behavior, something like "b****** be crazy" comes back from men.
It seems to me that women are targeted more often, by a wide margin, but when men are the target the men here too often roll over or over-react. Not exclusively, but often. In that sense, my response here is about more than this thread, though everything I wrote about this thread is my honest opinion.
In this thread I felt that middle aged men got treated pretty shabbily ans so I took the opportunity to respond with something more thoughtful than the examples above.
So back at you. Don't take it personal that I disagree with your estimate of what happened here. I respect your take on things, I stated my take, and they differ.
many thanks
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I don't mind cooking, cleaning, or doing actual laundry, but putting the sheets and blankets back on after washing them really sucks.
Somehow, I usually manage to start off with the darn thing in the wrong direction, then of course, the top end is several inches too short to fit over the mattress, then we start over again. 
Amazing how much a warm sheet just out of the dryer seems to have shrunk, and getting those corners just right is so tricky. 
