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So then what is your take on the men who've said that they can't imagine not paying on date with a woman? That if a man isn't prepared to pay, he shouldn't be dating? Right or wrong, the concept of guys paying for dates is a longstanding tradition, and it's not just upheld or expected by women.
I agree. It's like the thing about women hitting men, and nothing is thought of it, it even happens on sitcoms for comedy, and in anime for the same reason with females beating on males. But rare will men hitting women be treated so lightly.
That's a double standard. I am a woman, and think nobody should be hitting, but if a woman throws a lick, then I don't fault the guy should he knock the hell out of her. Like a poster here that started a fight with her SO, then when he tried to leave, she blocks the door and won't let him, so he shoved her on the bed. I can't say I blame him. Don't provoke, and egg on, people.
But my father on the other hand is of the mentality that if a man hits a woman, he's not a man. Or other guys I went to school with, who say guys that hit women are pathetic. So, even some guys hold the thought. it's not something that is pushed only by women, or was just made-up by spoiled women who just want rights to beat men and get away with it.
These "who pays" threads always turn out to be messy and people get all pissy.
The general pattern appears to divide up primarily into a generational thing, with older set thinking that men should pay.
I think the real simple easy way of doing it, as others have mentioned, is that the person who does the asking or inviting should pay,or at least be prepared to pay for the whole thing and if the other party offers to go dutch, then great.
Note, this applies more to when dating is casual, not when there is a full blown relationship, at that point it's different and the who pays thing isn't as relevant.
So then what is your take on the men who've said that they can't imagine not paying on date with a woman? That if a man isn't prepared to pay, he shouldn't be dating?
I'm not suggesting that anyone shouldn't be dating. People can do as they please but when they talk about it, they shouldn't try to pretend that it is not hypocritical.
If someone admitted it was a double standard but explained that it suited them because it made them feel more masculine (paying) or more feminine (being paid for) then I would have nothing to say. It would be an honest statement.
Given that many feminists see Chivalry as the enemy of equality and others have campaigned for equality that reaches way beyond just the work environment, I think it is naive not to acknowledge this.
These "who pays" threads always turn out to be messy and people get all pissy.
The general pattern appears to divide up primarily into a generational thing, with older set thinking that men should pay.
I think the real simple easy way of doing it, as others have mentioned, is that the person who does the asking or inviting should pay,or at least be prepared to pay for the whole thing and if the other party offers to go dutch, then great.
Note, this applies more to when dating is casual, not when there is a full blown relationship, at that point it's different and the who pays thing isn't as relevant.
I wonder if such threads would still be messy if someone said
''As a man I believe in equality but when it comes to my romantic life, I feel that always paying for the date makes me feel more masculine and traditional. I acknowledge that this is a double standard but it suits me to do so and my date is happy with this''
Instead what we get are people ignoring the fact that it is a double standard and pretending that no such hypocrisy exists. That is when you start getting people calling them out but they continue to deny it.
How is it a double standard? Work and romantic relationships are two entirely separate things. I don't want my boss to treat me like a lover. I don't want my husband to treat me like his sister. I don't want my friend to treat me like a boss. These things are all different and can't be compared.
What I find interesting in all these conversations is that some men get so up in arms about women wanting to be treated special or wanting a man to be a gentleman - and then they say, "Well, how are YOU going to act like a woman? What are you going to bring to the situation?" But the thing is - that is for the MEN to say. What do YOU look for in a date? What do YOU want the woman to bring to the situation? I mean, I know what I looked for in a mate - but I'd have to ask my husband what it is about me that he feels was what he was looking for. I could guess at why he fell in love with me - but only he can say for sure why I am the one for him. Women can say what we like to do for our men - but it is really the men that are the ones that know what it is they are looking for. Do you like it when you see that your date has obviously taken the time to look nice to try to impress you? Do you like it when your date touches you during the date? Do you like it when she asks you questions and genuinely seems interested in what you have to say? Do you like it when she offers to pay - and means it? Do you like it when she refuses to let you pay? Do you like it when she burps at the table? Do you like it when she dominates the conversation?
Only YOU can say what you want a woman to bring to the date to make you feel special. But I'm assuming you don't want her to only talk about work and treat you in a professional manner. But I could be wrong.
You make some interesting points (2nd paragraph and down), but I'll try and address the first paragraph. I believe you're totally correct in that both genders are entitled to want certain behaviors from their date. Where, in my opinion, the double standard exists is that the (for lack of a better term) "unequal" behaviors that women want are seen as acceptable, even righteous if you will, whereas the behaviors that men typically desire are viewed with more disdain. This is all from a societal perspective, not a gender one. Meaning, I think if a guy were to come on here and post his version of the OP with an inverted example, he would get shredded a lot worse than the OP is.
I choose to practice some pretter serious selection regarding who I date, but I'm fortunate enough to be in a position where I can afford to do so. The average guy simply does not get away with insisting on any sort of behavior (which was kind of addressed in the OLD thread). That's the double standard.
I wonder if such threads would still be messy if someone said
''As a man I believe in equality but when it comes to my romantic life, I feel that always paying for the date makes me feel more masculine and traditional. I acknowledge that this is a double standard but it suits me to do so and my date is happy with this''
Instead what we get are people ignoring the fact that it is a double standard and pretending that no such hypocrisy exists. That is when you start getting people calling them out but they continue to deny it.
Of course you wouldn't, because the action in question here is of a giving nature, not a receiving one. Same thing, if a woman came on here and said that cooking, cleaning, caring for children, etc...made her feel more feminine and that's her preference, she'd generally be left alone as well.
Get a guy to come on here and say that this is the behavior he prefers in a woman? Warfare.
I'm not suggesting that anyone shouldn't be dating. People can do as they please but when they talk about it, they shouldn't try to pretend that it is not hypocritical.
If someone admitted it was a double standard but explained that it suited them because it made them feel more masculine (paying) or more feminine (being paid for) then I would have nothing to say. It would be an honest statement.
Given that many feminists see Chivalry as the enemy of equality and others have campaigned for equality that reaches way beyond just the work environment, I think it is naive not to acknowledge this.
If we're getting honest here, there is a part of me that gets the double standard. I mean women are making more and more money now, many are advancing, moving up the coporate ladder, the wage gap is starting to signifigantly become more even, etc etc, plus young guys are being brought up with the mindsets that men and women are equal blah blah blah.
The point is I can see younger guys point to a degree about why should they have to pay.
That's why I made the post about it now has seems like it should be based off of who does the asking, that way it also empowers women or at least it is a more modern in that if a woman wants to date and take the lead more. It would be sort of odd that if a woman asks and then still expects the man to pay.
I'm early generation X, I guess that is considered old school by young people, but I would always pay for the first few dates, after a bit she can chip in, that makes some sense to me.
To answer you about the double standard, I fully accept that there is some level of double standard, but I was raised that men take the lead in the dating world and do more of the pursing, so if that the case I do more of the asking, I would have to do more of the paying, right???
Let's say you have a date with a guy...free jazz concert. You have a good time. Later on the way home he asks if I want to grab a bite to eat. We stop at Wendys because we're on foot and just really hungry. He orders his food first and pays. I order my food (just two orders of chicken nuggets and a soda) and he doesn't pay. Not even an offer. I hate to admit this but I was soooo turned off by this. I mean come on dude it was $4, not like you paid for the concert. Not that I care about money but this just screams cheap to me. He just asked me out on another date but ladies would you even want to go?
If he were interested in you for anything other than friendship he would have paid. If he is a nice guy that you wouldn't mind having as a friend you should continue to do things with him just like you would with your lady friends. But he is not relationship material for you.
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