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TL;DR: Many men give misogynistic advice that SOMETIMES leads to success, most women give women-friendly advice that does NOT lead to practical dating results for socially awkward men
Except for all the LTR's and marriages that have resulted from people meeting during soccer practice and other shared activities.
It's not necessarily about being friends first; you're mischaracterizing it. It's about placing yourself in an environment where you can meet a number of women, and get to know them gradually, while they also get to know you. It gives people a chance to get to know the socially awkward guy's unique qualities. That isn't possible in a cold-approach setting, where so much depends on first impressions. Shy and awkward people aren't good at making a favorable first impression.
Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 07-12-2014 at 01:59 PM..
Like most threads of this type, the men seem to give advice based on anecdotes that DO work for some socially awkward men, however make the women feel like there merely pawns in a numbers game. This comes off as misogynist and I doubt feminists would give such advice.
On the other hand, many women here seem to be advocating a gender-blind approach where you treat women as just friends like guys. As I said, this ignores the fact the society itself is sexist, which includes the pressures of men to initiate and the pressures of women to not seem too eager because there's a double standard against women who date lots of men. Socially awkward men don't have much experience initiating touching the opposite sex, and they're not going to get much experience if they make lots of female friends and treat them like a bunch of guys.
TL;DR: Many men give misogynistic advice that SOMETIMES leads to success, most women give women-friendly advice that does NOT lead to practical dating results for socially awkward men
Why did you ask for feminist advice, then? Just curious.
What will happen is he will meet a woman at work, or school, get to know her well, think she is the most special woman on Earth, and she will see him as a friend. After that happens 5 or 6 times, you suggest continuing to approach in that manner?
'Cuz it can and has happened that many times and can happen many more.
How many men have you rejected in that manner? And you still suggest it? Unreal.
Numbers game doesn't mean approaching 100 women in a bar and asking yes or no. It means getting to know them and then expressing your interest as soon as practically possible. The getting to know part happens while you are dating.
Actually, not many, and the longer it took, the more significant the relationship turned out to be. My ex-husband got to know me over the course of a year before we started dating. My last significant SO took six months. One thing I can't stand about online dating, and why I stopped, is because of garbage like form letters and short emails that were so obviously just cut and pasted from message to message that they tripped the spam warning in my in-box on POF. (Yep, when you see that warning not to transfer any money to anyone, you know a whole bunch of people got the same message or something very close to it from the same person.) I can also tell when a man is multidating. The dates feel scripted.
You have to have a sense of timing about this stuff, and be able to read people, both their expressions and their body language. Most women send out signals. If you spend six months or a year on someone who friendzones you, chances are she friendzoned you within the first month and you were just too dense or blindly hopeful to pick up on it.
But don't look at me. I'm not the one who is on here seeking help for social awkwardness, and my posting history is not riddled with endless complaints about not being able to get it together with the opposite sex. I'm pretty successful at dating when I want to date, but what do I know? Please, by all means, tell me, l'il woman that I am, how many people I've rejected, what I like in a man, and how men have established relationships with me in the past.
Why did you ask for feminist advice, then? Just curious.
I'm looking to see if any feminists / women who feel strongly about women as human beings with rights, emotions, and feelings, have any practical advice or resources for men who have social anxiety and are unable to overcome their fears of being creepy and enter a relationship. I'm asking because many of these women hate pickup artists with a passion yet don't offer any alternative to people who are the most susceptible to their messages. It's easy for these women to say that it's not their responsibility to help these men, but I think it's worthwhile to help them in order to stop the seeds of misogyny. If these men had alternatives, there would not be a pickup artist industry.
I want such women to put themselves in these mens' shoes and think of what they would do to be able to flirt and date like a normal person while still treating women with the respect they deserve.
I'm looking to see if any feminists / women who feel strongly about women as human beings with rights, emotions, and feelings, have any practical advice or resources for men who have social anxiety and are unable to overcome their fears of being creepy and enter a relationship. I'm asking because many of these women hate pickup artists with a passion yet don't offer any alternative to people who are the most susceptible to their messages. It's easy for these women to say that it's not their responsibility to help these men, but I think it's worthwhile to help them in order to stop the seeds of misogyny. If these men had alternatives, there would not be a pickup artist industry.
I want such women to put themselves in these mens' shoes and think of what they would do to be able to flirt and date like a normal person while still treating women with the respect they deserve.
OK, so 5 pages of practical suggestions aren't good enough? What's the problem?
Actually, not many, and the longer it took, the more significant the relationship turned out to be. My ex-husband got to know me over the course of a year before we started dating. My last significant SO took six months. One thing I can't stand about online dating, and why I stopped, is because of garbage like form letters and short emails that were so obviously just cut and pasted from message to message that they tripped the spam warning in my in-box on POF. (Yep, when you see that warning not to transfer any money to anyone, you know a whole bunch of people got the same message or something very close to it from the same person.) I can also tell when a man is multidating. The dates feel scripted.
You have to have a sense of timing about this stuff, and be able to read people, both their expressions and their body language. Most women send out signals. If you spend six months or a year on someone who friendzones you, chances are she friendzoned you within the first month and you were just too dense or blindly hopeful to pick up on it.
But don't look at me. I'm not the one who is on here seeking help for social awkwardness, and my posting history is not riddled with endless complaints about not being able to get it together with the opposite sex. I'm pretty successful at dating when I want to date, but what do I know? Please, by all means, tell me, l'il woman that I am, how many people I've rejected, what I like in a man, and how men have established relationships with me in the past.
Ok, Ok, no need to get nasty.
I apologize. You have your way, I have mine.
But it is also not that great to tell a young poster, he fails because he fails to follow your prescription.
My success with women has been greater using the shotgun method. There's always more than one way to skin a cat.
Work on the social anxiety, which is going to impair all aspects of life: making and maintaining friendships, getting and keeping a job, dealing with people day to day, and so on. Learn how to regard and talk to women as human beings, rather than sexual conquests or romantic candidates.
It is not only to “getting or keeping a job” but have a good job. How attractive do you think a 30 year old engineer is that lives with his parents and works at McDonalds because he cannot find a real employment? The key is getting a good job after college or graduate school and the rest will come automatically for most men. You will earn enough to pay for your personal trainer and buy cool cloths. When I was in high school, college and graduate school I had little trouble finding attractive women. I was part of something and people thought I was reading something interesting, that was not accounting and I could say smart stuff about BS things and educated, smart and attractive women like when some preppy clothed elite-educated ******* said smart things to them and never really suck up to them. I don’t suck up to women other when I have been desperate. When I left graduate school I couldn’t find a white-color job for two years. I got chubby, sad and my perfect teeth got a bit yellow of all tobacco I used. My self-esteem went to the bottom – but still few attractive women wanted to date me but much fewer of them. Women, among those I went to graduate school with had no problem because they are not expected to provide for the family, even though most of them do. Most of them just saw an opportunity get to pregnant anyway with their boyfriends. Women are simple; they care about money and prestige – but after college or graduate school that prestige transfers into a white-color job. If you just have it – things will work out for you. That is also why men are older than women – they have to have a few years to establish themselves on the job-market. There are some dudes that cannot find women even though they have a good job and money but these people are often look for wrong women that will not suit their personality.
Women in their thirties get desperate and needs someone who gives them a child. Most of them will lower their standards and often significantly. More so – they may be that type that always went after older men but now they after men that is below their own age if they wants the same thing as them. So, if you are a 30 year old college educated chubby every-day looking male with an average and boring white-color job you will not have any trouble to find an attractive woman in her thirties. In fact – it will even be easy as long you are within normality in behavior.
My sambo is an MD and pretty attractive. When I meet her three years ago I had just got my first white-color job (and I was still unemployed-ugly at that point) and even though she was over my league she was still into me because I had the basics. Sure, three years later I still earn 50K a year and cannot get more than one year long contracts within private or public research and she is still making 75K a year and will make much more soon. Why did she start date me? Well, I had the basics and she said that “Oh, I don’t care about money” – which was more like: You passed the job-thing and the rest is good enough.
If I took Lilac's advice, I could be sitting here, only asking out the women I have fallen for. That might happen once every two years and I'd certainly without doubt be a 40 year old virgin.
What? No one is advocating that! That's crazy.
An emotionally healthy guy (or girl) is incapable of falling for someone they are not already in a relationship with.
I think we need to talk about this, because it has come up in several other guys' threads.
If you feel you have fallen for someone, or are in love with them, and you do not have an emotionally intimate relationship with them that predates your feelings, then the person you love is not real. You are not in love with the real girl you see in front of you. You are in love with who you imagine her to be. This is called 'projection', and healthy people cannot do it.
The way normal dating works is this: You see someone who catches your interest. Maybe you see her physically, or maybe you see a paper she wrote or something. Anyway, something gives you the impression that she might be cool, and compatible with you.
You talk to her. She and you both use the conversation to continue to assess, update, reassess whether the two of you might be compatible. Does she like pizza? Great, so do you! Does she like country music? Uh-oh, but maybe we can work with that. And so on.
If there are no major red flags in the first minutes/hours/weeks of conversation, you two go on a date. The process of learning about each other and re-evaluating compatibiity continues. Once you know each other very well (are emotionally intimate, can talk about serious feelings and do so) then you might fall in love.
You don't fall in love and then talk to her. That's not what love means.
OK, so 5 pages of practical suggestions aren't good enough? What's the problem?
The suggestions have been very vague and general, mainly about improving oneself, being more social, taking time to get to know women, and that relationships with naturally follow.
Lilac110 said that even having a set "method" is misogynist because it's treating "women" as a goal. Maybe it's natural for the women here to simply suggest general life advice rather than giving socially anxious men the tools they need to find love. But it's not helpful from the man's point of view.
Last edited by usuario; 07-12-2014 at 05:05 PM..
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Please, by all means, tell me, l'il woman that I am, how many people I've rejected, what I like in a man, and how men have established relationships with me in the past.
