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I tried to imagine what could possibly make a woman feel less feminine or less like a woman. After a while thinking, I came up with these possibilities:
I can imagine if a woman is at a dance event (e.g., a party, a club, a prom, a wedding, a school dance, a community dance, et al) and everyone or nearly everyone is dancing and she can't dance and sits on the sidelines or, when she gets up to dance, her dancing looks clumsy, awkward, unskilled, ungraceful, et al and she realizes this and gets off of the dance floor to sit on the sidelines or to hide away, that could prospectively defeminize her. That is, it seems to me that the near-overwhelming majority of womankind seems to love and value dancing and, if a woman can't dance naturally and gracefully (or enough so) and feel comfortable and easygoing with it, I can imagine that she really stands out from the crowd as the odd person and feels less feminine, perhaps less sexy, et al.
If a man aims to kiss or make out with a woman and she is a less-than-ideal kisser or even a lousy kisser and make-outer and the guy notices this, I suppose this could make the woman feel less feminine.
If a woman comes cross as inexperienced and clumsy in bed and acts like she doesn't know what she is doing (yet the guy does), I suppose this could make the woman feel less feminine to whatever degree.
Are my instincts right about these points or not, ladies? I'm not insisting I'm right; I'm just going by intuition.
The thing is men aren't expected to do certain things. OP speak of what would be referred to as chivalry, an ancient religious and military code of conduct which has for the most part fallen by the wayside. Most of the men I see/know that do the things described in the OP are of a religious or military background (usually southern) or their family was and taught them to behave in this manner. If not doing these things makes a man feel emasculated, that's on him.
I think today what is expected of men and women is to take care of their families. Although over 50% of married women are in the workforce, it still seem women are expected to be the ones to keep the house, cook and care for the children as the OP suggests. Whether one feels less a woman for not being responsible for those things is a stretch these days.
I think, as many women have commented, those things most women identify as feminine are looks, particularly body parts, child bearing, and nurturing.
Things that were ascribed to the female gender like cooking, cleaning and catering may still be an important part of some women's lives but IMO hardly something that is going to make us feel less female if we do not revel in it. Same as I don't believe a man, as the OP likes to put it, not paying for a woman's expenses, carrying her stuff, holding her umbrella, or walking on the street side (as if the majority of men do this) makes them feel any less male.
I tried to imagine what could possibly make a woman feel less feminine or less like a woman. After a while thinking, I came up with these possibilities:
I can imagine if a woman is at a dance event (e.g., a party, a club, a prom, a wedding, a school dance, a community dance, et al) and everyone or nearly everyone is dancing and she can't dance and sits on the sidelines or, when she gets up to dance, her dancing looks clumsy, awkward, unskilled, ungraceful, et al and she realizes this and gets off of the dance floor to sit on the sidelines or to hide away, that could prospectively defeminize her. That is, it seems to me that the near-overwhelming majority of womankind seems to love and value dancing and, if a woman can't dance naturally and gracefully (or enough so) and feel comfortable and easygoing with it, I can imagine that she really stands out from the crowd as the odd person and feels less feminine, perhaps less sexy, et al.
If a man aims to kiss or make out with a woman and she is a less-than-ideal kisser or even a lousy kisser and make-outer and the guy notices this, I suppose this could make the woman feel less feminine.
If a woman comes cross as inexperienced and clumsy in bed and acts like she doesn't know what she is doing (yet the guy does), I suppose this could make the woman feel less feminine to whatever degree.
Are my instincts right about these points or not, ladies? I'm not insisting I'm right; I'm just going by intuition.
Just my 2cents. #1, maybe 200 years ago. Do people really dance that much especially where one would need to be skilled and graceful. Not like there is a lot of ballroom dancing or tango going on these days.
#2 and 3. Not really, a lot of men prefer inexperienced women in the boudoir.
The thing is men aren't expected to do certain things.
I think men are still expected to do certain things or they will be seen with negativity. Imagine if there is a dangerous situation and men run to safety instead of putting his girl behind him and facing that dangerous situation. Imagine a boat is sinking and a man quickly jumps to safety but his girl is left behind. Not a nice scene or something a man could live with. A man is expected to lead his girl and children to safety FIRST. It’s just one of those expectations. Or imagine seeing a couple in a crowded bus where the man is seating comfortably playing on his phone and his girl is standing up, even worse, imagine going out on a date and having your guy seating nice and comfy while you are standing up. For arguments sake we can say “Oh no problem, I would date him again next day” but we know it just looks bad. So there are still some subtle expectations from men and others that are not that subtle. That is why I was wondering if there are any kind of expectations like that for women and a few have understood the question. Being late, not answering a call, etc. those are not necessarily things that emasculate/defeminize. Those are just good manners that are expected from everybody.
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I think today what is expected of men and women is to take care of their families. Although over 50% of married women are in the workforce, it still seem women are expected to be the ones to keep the house, cook and care for the children as the OP suggests. Whether one feels less a woman for not being responsible for those things is a stretch these days.
Yes, there are still some expectations out there that are not changing yet such as women still taking care of the house or men taking care of expenses (dating and beyond) or initiative. These may change in the future.
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Things that were ascribed to the female gender like cooking, cleaning and catering may still be an important part of some women's lives but IMO hardly something that is going to make us feel less female if we do not revel in it
Could be a cultural thing as I felt that somewhat different when I have spent time with Latino and Asian people like the example I mentioned earlier about men going to work without food cooked from their wife, my friend’s button on his shirt, etc. It did look like they felt defeminized if they didn’t do those things for their man or if their man took care of it.
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Originally Posted by SeaOfGrass
Meeting the needs of children, whether they're mine or not.
If a guy quickly jumps on a chair because there is a rat in the room or roach we know how unmanly that looks if a girl calmly walks in, takes care of the rat or roach, and walks out of the room. Or a man having trouble fixing a part of his car but his friend (girl) opens the hood and fixes that part easily in front of his friends. Why? Because it is expected from men to know more about cars, machinery, etc. than women. I wonder if there is an equivalent the other way around like “Look at her, she’s not so much of a woman. That man had to take care of it instead of her.” I was thinking about your comment. A baby crying and a mother doesn’t know how to calm the baby but then comes the father, wraps the baby in a blanket, carries the baby, and then the crying stops in a few seconds.
I think men are still expected to do certain things or they will be seen with
negativity. Imagine if there is a dangerous situation and men run to safety
instead of putting his girl behind him and facing that dangerous situation.
Imagine a boat is sinking and a man quickly jumps to safety but his girl is left
behind. Not a nice scene or something a man could live with. A man is expected
to lead his girl and children to safety FIRST. It’s just one of those
expectations. Or imagine seeing a couple in a crowded bus where the man is
seating comfortably playing on his phone and his girl is standing up, even
worse, imagine going out on a date and having your guy seating nice and comfy
while you are standing up. For arguments sake we can say “Oh no problem, I
would date him again next day” but we know it just looks bad. So there are
still some subtle expectations from men and others that are not that subtle.
That is why I was wondering if there are any kind of expectations like that for
women and a few have understood the question. Being late, not answering a call,
etc. those are not necessarily things that emasculate/defeminize. Those are
just good manners that are expected from everybody.
You spend a lot of time in your head imagining. Really how often does one see these situations and who is it exactly that is judging?
What I don't have to imagine is the number of women in shelters and the ER that have been physically abused by men, men who don't take care of their "girl" or children. This says no one really expects much these days and obviously there is no emasculating epidemic. Not in real life anyway.
Expectations vary from person to person. Sure there are expectations out there, but random expectations from strangers are just that and should not make one feel less of a man or woman.
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Yes, there are still some expectations out there that are not changing yet such
as women still taking care of the house or men taking care of expenses (dating
and beyond) or initiative. These may change in the future.
NO. There are very few people today who expect men today to take care of expenses especially beyond. Hello, women comprise 47% of the total US workforce. And yes this has been and still is changing.
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Could be a cultural thing as I felt that somewhat different when I have spent
time with Latino and Asian people like the example I mentioned earlier about men
going to work without food cooked from their wife, my friend’s button on his
shirt, etc. It did look like they felt defeminized if they didn’t do those
things for their man or if their man took care of it.
Perhaps. With 47% of women in the workforce sharing financial responsibilities with their spouses as well as taking care of most of the domestic responsibilities perhaps American women are no longer guilted into thinking they have to take care of a grown man like he is a child.
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If a guy quickly jumps on a chair because there is a rat in the room or roach we
know how unmanly that looks if a girl calmly walks in, takes care of the rat or
roach, and walks out of the room.
LOL. Have you been watching old cartoons.
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Or a man having trouble fixing a part of his car but his friend (girl) opens
the hood and fixes that part easily in front of his friends. Why? Because it
is expected from men to know more about cars, machinery, etc. than women. I
wonder if there is an equivalent the other way around like “Look at her, she’s
not so much of a woman. That man had to take care of it instead of her.” I was
thinking about your comment. A baby crying and a mother doesn’t know how to
calm the baby but then comes the father, wraps the baby in a blanket, carries
the baby, and then the crying stops in a few seconds.
Of course for people who are backward thinking. As I said those things ascribed to women, cooking, cleaning, sewing, having/adoring children, nurturing. Also, being loud, smoking, drinking, cursing, being forward, being smart, gambling, making a lot of money, doing "men's" jobs or anything they can do as well or better than a man. These are things, as we all know, expected of women to do and not to do. This is the same as your example of expectations of manliness.
This is just your beating about the bush at your samle ol' men are expected to do X, Y and Z while all women have to do is sit there.
What I don't have to imagine is the number of women in shelters and the ER that have been physically abused by men, men who don't take care of their "girl" or children. This says no one really expects much these days and obviously there is no emasculating epidemic. Not in real life anyway.
Don’t change the topic. Of course those men do wrong as well as all the women who murder their children (abortion) or throw them away. We know what is expected from men and when they don’t do that they don’t get a 2nd date or simply look wrong. Yes, men are expected to step forward for their girl when there is danger, not women. There are other threads where this has already been talked about. The whole “women and children first.”
Perhaps since men are still expected to take initiative and whatnot when it comes to dating we don’t see as many women taking initiative. Sure there are some women out there that may consider taking initiative, there are exceptions, but we’re still far from seeing women do that as much as men do. That is one of other things expected from men. It’s ok to show that women are empowered now and don’t care what society says and all that but I there has to be some things that can make some women feel defeminized. SeaOfGrass mentioned a few.
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Perhaps. With 47% of women in the workforce sharing financial responsibilities with their spouses as well as taking care of most of the domestic responsibilities perhaps American women are no longer guilted into thinking they have to take care of a grown man like he is a child
You proved a point I mentioned before. American women may feel they are taking care of a child if they cook for their man but there are other cultures where women do feel defeminized if they don’t regardless of both working or not. Is this wrong or bad? No. It’s just a cultural difference but I was curious to see if American women felt defeminized for the same or other things they do or don’t do for a man that are gender-specific.
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LOL. Have you been watching old cartoons.
Come on, are you going to say you will find it totally fine if a man gets scared if a rat is in the room and quickly gets out of the room? Men are not expected to show fear for the same things women show fear or they are ridiculed. Are you going to deny that too?
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Of course for people who are backward thinking. As I said those things ascribed to women, cooking, cleaning, sewing, having/adoring children, nurturing. These are things, as we all know, expected of women to do and not to do. This is the same as your example of expectations of manliness.
There you go. There are things expected from women. A few have admitted they would feel a bit embarrassed or defeminized if a men did those things instead of them or if they did a better job. That’s all. Not much to say now. I guess we have agreed?
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This is just your beating about the bush at your samle ol' men are expected to do X, Y and Z while all women have to do is sit there
Not saying women just sit there but some comments make it seem like it.
There are many things we know of that make men feel emasculated which of course works towards women such as a man feeling bad for not walking on the side of the street, not paying for her expenses, not taking his coat off for a woman, not holding the umbrella, not carrying something heavy for her, and so on. Now, is there something women feel less-of-a-woman (femaleculated) if a man does something they feel is their duty as a woman to do it? For example, I see a woman carrying a heavy box that I know I can carry easily but don’t do anything about it. Of course I will feel bad and emasculated to just walk whistling besides her with my hands in my pockets so I’ll do something about it to help.
I think men are still expected to do certain things or they will be seen with negativity. Imagine if there is a dangerous situation and men run to safety instead of putting his girl behind him and facing that dangerous situation. Imagine a boat is sinking and a man quickly jumps to safety but his girl is left behind. Not a nice scene or something a man could live with. A man is expected to lead his girl and children to safety FIRST. It’s just one of those expectations. Or imagine seeing a couple in a crowded bus where the man is seating comfortably playing on his phone and his girl is standing up, even worse, imagine going out on a date and having your guy seating nice and comfy while you are standing up. For arguments sake we can say “Oh no problem, I would date him again next day” but we know it just looks bad. So there are still some subtle expectations from men and others that are not that subtle. That is why I was wondering if there are any kind of expectations like that for women and a few have understood the question. Being late, not answering a call, etc. those are not necessarily things that emasculate/defeminize. Those are just good manners that are expected from everybody.
Yes, there are still some expectations out there that are not changing yet such as women still taking care of the house or men taking care of expenses (dating and beyond) or initiative. These may change in the future.
Could be a cultural thing as I felt that somewhat different when I have spent time with Latino and Asian people like the example I mentioned earlier about men going to work without food cooked from their wife, my friend’s button on his shirt, etc. It did look like they felt defeminized if they didn’t do those things for their man or if their man took care of it.
If a guy quickly jumps on a chair because there is a rat in the room or roach we know how unmanly that looks if a girl calmly walks in, takes care of the rat or roach, and walks out of the room. Or a man having trouble fixing a part of his car but his friend (girl) opens the hood and fixes that part easily in front of his friends. Why? Because it is expected from men to know more about cars, machinery, etc. than women. I wonder if there is an equivalent the other way around like “Look at her, she’s not so much of a woman. That man had to take care of it instead of her.” I was thinking about your comment. A baby crying and a mother doesn’t know how to calm the baby but then comes the father, wraps the baby in a blanket, carries the baby, and then the crying stops in a few seconds.
I see it more like the strong ones take care of the weaker and more vulnerable members of their family and community. For example, both men and women are expected to give up their seat on a crowded a seat to an elderly person, or a pregnant woman, or a disabled person. This isn't complicated.
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) if a man does something they feel is their duty as a woman to do it? For example, I see a woman carrying a heavy box that I know I can carry easily but don’t do anything about it. Of course I will feel bad and emasculated to just walk whistling besides her with my hands in my pockets so I’ll do something about it to help.
