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My school... the old school 40' plus generation has it somewhat figured out... I don't care how and what we do... I know how most women my age think and I can relate.. and they can relate.... we can seem to meet.
The younger generation no so much... just based on some of the message here... and the messages of society... makes things interesting for the future.....
This is what is so frustrating. My son is 22 (today!) and he doesn't have this confusion. He is always chivalrous, polite, etc...and he has no problems with the ladies either. His friends are all just like him, in that regard. All polite, well-mannered, chivalrous young men. There has never been any of this vitriol towards women that so many of these young posters display here. I guess that is one reason I find these posts so absurd. I just don't see the young men in my world, with this skewed perspective.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,937 posts, read 36,948,491 times
Reputation: 40635
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChessieMom
Yikes. That is awful. I am the opposite. MOST of the people I know, do cook and eat at home. Heck my co-workers frequently share recipes and talk about their latest masterpiece,, and bring home-cooked treats in quite often. I have no desire to be in that 60-80 hour rat face, thank you very much.
I bowed out. I was in the clean tech start up field for awhile, and while it was fascinating, the lifestyle wore on me mentally. I moved to a different field that I love, but it came with a huge paycut. There is a good reason most people I date make 50%+ more than me, I took a big cut. I don't regret it at all, but the reality is I'll have to move out of the city I love as I can't really afford it. It's all about choices (well, not really, I'm blessed that it is a choice for me). More than a few of my friends are psyched about the holidays as they have a little time to cook and bake. Many of them have these great kitchens but never get to use them. Personally, I'm glad to be done with the eating out 3x a day 5x a week thing just for health purposes, never mind the money.
I bowed out. I was in the clean tech start up field for awhile, and while it was fascinating, the lifestyle wore on me mentally. I moved to a different field that I love, but it came with a huge paycut. There is a good reason most people I date make 50%+ more than me, I took a big cut. I don't regret it at all, but the reality is I'll have to move out of the city I love as I can't really afford it. It's all about choices (well, not really, I'm blessed that it is a choice for me). More than a few of my friends are psyched about the holidays as they have a little time to cook and bake. Many of them have these great kitchens but never get to use them. Personally, I'm glad to be done with the eating out 3x a day 5x a week thing just for health purposes, never mind the money.
Well that is my main concern as well, but thankfully I also enjoy cooking.
Dissenter, there's a part of me that gets you and a lot the younger man's issue. On a certain level I can get what your talking about, your generation has been blasted with women being equal and all that goes with it... I mean equal access, equal rights, etc etc.. I get it...
There is mixed messages that seem to be inundating the millennial... I get it to a degree.... if we're all equal why all the fuss around this chivalry stuff, why do I have to make efforts to be chivalrous, we're all equal right???????
I get the mixed messages... I can understand to a degree the reluctance, even its' subconscious to a degree... but it's there..... there is a power shift and or a power grab that the ladies have done...right??? I mean women just don't get it right??? LOL LOL
Why should a man have to put more effort into a woman when were all equal... why do I have to put out the effort when she's just as equal as me??????
Why do I have to subjugate myself and make her more special than me????
All of those feelings are somewhat natural... I think that were in a weird place in our society, in development of our feelings and how all this stuff ties together.......
The social mores.. and the genetic conditioning... which is what and where does it all stand...........
WTF is the right route??? some of these are legit questions that young people face.
My school... the old school 40' plus generation has it somewhat figured out... I don't care how and what we do... I know how most women my age think and I can relate.. and they can relate.... we can seem to meet.
The younger generation no so much... just based on some of the message here... and the messages of society... makes things interesting for the future.....
This is in no way..indicative of anything academic... most likely just a mans simple observations while eating a PB and J sandwich.....
It may not be academic, but it is a very good post and a pretty clear distillation of the frustrations of many guys, myself included.
Pared down even further, I think a lot guys, again myself included, feel that women (especially gen X, Y and Millenials) want to have their cake and eat it too. That is, they want to enjoy the benefits of economic parity and Feminism, but at the same time they also want to enjoy the benefits of "patriarchy."
A good "for instance" is all of that Pew research data that came out last fall about the state of marriage. Almost 80% of women would not date a man who was unemployed at the time. A lot of men see it as, women have been freed from their "oppressive" gender roles, and yet they still hold men to the exact same standard as they always have: he must be more educated than her, he must make more than her. etc.
This is the reason for all the articles proclaiming the sad, sad plight of 30+ super-empowered-have-it-all career women and the apparent "shortage of marriageable men."
And, I don't want to get started on a rant here, but those articles are enough to **** a modern guy off. Think of how they're framed. Do they lament the fact that the problem stems from men taking 80% of the job losses in the most recent recession, or the general disappearance of blue-collar jobs over the last 30 years, or the fact that fewer men are employed right now than at time in the last 50 or 60 years.
No, they are framed from the perspective of the poor, poor women who can't find husbands now that nature is calling.
The heterosexual (and to some degree, white) male is the last group in America that it's cool to bash and ignore. Men are tired of it, I know I am.
Location: Huntersville/Charlotte, NC and Washington, DC
26,699 posts, read 41,733,093 times
Reputation: 41381
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChessieMom
This is what is so frustrating. My son is 22 (today!) and he doesn't have this confusion. He is always chivalrous, polite, etc...and he has no problems with the ladies either. His friends are all just like him, in that regard. All polite, well-mannered, chivalrous young men. There has never been any of this vitriol towards women that so many of these young posters display here. I guess that is one reason I find these posts so absurd. I just don't see the young men in my world, with this skewed perspective.
Well obvious, your son grew up in a different environment than I did. I was too busy worrying about survival and getting backstabbed by folks I thought I could trust to worry about being nice. I believe in self-reliance and not expecting people to do for you so you have to make your own way without any expectancy of help.
It may not be academic, but it is a very good post and a pretty clear distillation of the frustrations of many guys, myself included.
Pared down even further, I think a lot guys, again myself included, feel that women (especially gen X, Y and Millenials) want to have their cake and eat it too. That is, they want to enjoy the benefits of economic parity and Feminism, but at the same time they also want to enjoy the benefits of "patriarchy."
A good "for instance" is all of that Pew research data that came out last fall about the state of marriage. Almost 80% of women would not date a man who was unemployed at the time. A lot of men see it as, women have been freed from their "oppressive" gender roles, and yet they still hold men to the exact same standard as they always have: he must be more educated than her, he must make more than her. etc.
This is the reason for all the articles proclaiming the sad, sad plight of 30+ super-empowered-have-it-all career women and the apparent "shortage of marriageable men."
And, I don't want to get started on a rant here, but those articles are enough to **** a modern guy off. Think of how they're framed. Do they lament the fact that the problem stems from men taking 80% of the job losses in the most recent recession, or the general disappearance of blue-collar jobs over the last 30 years, or the fact that fewer men are employed right now than at time in the last 50 or 60 years.
No, they are framed from the perspective of the poor, poor women who can't find husbands now that nature is calling.
The heterosexual (and to some degree, white) male is the last group in America that it's cool to bash and ignore. Men are tired of it, I know I am.
Why would you research all of that? Because you sit at home alone, instead of going out and meeting women? That's the kind of thing a 70 year old retired man might search, but to waste your time, to just add fuel to your self pity, is a total cop out. Why do men like to fight the trend, is it doing anything for your social life, other than give you a excuses to fail? Why should you waste your time because there is an 80% chance to fail.....maybe trying for that 20% makes more sense.
I swear, If I wasn't married, I would be in hog heaven. Guys are taking themselves out of the game because they are so bitter. They make every excuse in the world not to put themselves out there. You are making it much easier for guys who don't research the studies, who don't mind chivalry, who don't need..need...need...need....LOL, the way I see young men nowadays, they are pissing away their life, with self pity.
Chivalry is a tool, use it. It will show that you think a woman is special. Now while she may not bake you cookies on Sunday, she may take you out to that 5 star restaurant. Or take you on that European vacation, using the money she made, from the job she stole from you....Instead of whining, and making excuses, and feeling hatred towards the things men do to attract women, wouldn't it be a lot easier to hone those acts, so that you are more successful in your pursuit?
Some men seem like instead of improving to boost success, they would rather be lazy, and research studies, go on forums, and have a huge group cry...wtf?
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,937 posts, read 36,948,491 times
Reputation: 40635
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWedge
Pared down even further, I think a lot guys, again myself included, feel that women (especially gen X, Y and Millenials) want to have their cake and eat it too. That is, they want to enjoy the benefits of economic parity and Feminism, but at the same time they also want to enjoy the benefits of "patriarchy."
A good "for instance" is all of that Pew research data that came out last fall about the state of marriage. Almost 80% of women would not date a man who was unemployed at the time. A lot of men see it as, women have been freed from their "oppressive" gender roles, and yet they still hold men to the exact same standard as they always have: he must be more educated than her, he must make more than her. etc.
This is the reason for all the articles proclaiming the sad, sad plight of 30+ super-empowered-have-it-all career women and the apparent "shortage of marriageable men."
What is the point of having cake and not being able to eat it?
And, I'm a guy, would I date an unemployed woman (unemployed when we met), no, of course not. She's in no position to date. She has economic and emotional stresses, never mind that she has no idea where she will be location wise when she does find a position. A job search is a full time job, and an emotional rollercoaster.
And sorry, as a resonably education "professional" (whatever that means) I regularly date women making more than me. In the past 5 years or so everyone I've dated makes at least 50%+ what I make, often double. Some have more education as well. This isn't uncommon, at least in big cities. It just isn't a thing in reality.
This is what is so frustrating. My son is 22 (today!) and he doesn't have this confusion. He is always chivalrous, polite, etc...and he has no problems with the ladies either. His friends are all just like him, in that regard. All polite, well-mannered, chivalrous young men. There has never been any of this vitriol towards women that so many of these young posters display here. I guess that is one reason I find these posts so absurd. I just don't see the young men in my world, with this skewed perspective.
One of three things:
1. 22 year old men don't act or speak the same way they do around their mothers as they do around their friends.
2. He and his friends are young, and perhaps haven't been burned...yet.
3. I know in my early 20's my worldviews and the things I notice around me were not the same as they are now. Eventually, most guys come to notice the egregious double standards that are applied to men.
Why would you research all of that? Because you sit at home alone, instead of going out and meeting women? That's the kind of thing a 70 year old retired man might search, but to waste your time, to just add fuel to your self pity, is a total cop out. Why do men like to fight the trend, is it doing anything for your social life, other than give you a excuses to fail? Why should you waste your time because there is an 80% chance to fail.....maybe trying for that 20% makes more sense.
I swear, If I wasn't married, I would be in hog heaven. Guys are taking themselves out of the game because they are so bitter. They make every excuse in the world not to put themselves out there. You are making it much easier for guys who don't research the studies, who don't mind chivalry, who don't need..need...need...need....LOL, the way I see young men nowadays, they are pissing away their life, with self pity.
Chivalry is a tool, use it. It will show that you think a woman is special. Now while she may not bake you cookies on Sunday, she may take you out to that 5 star restaurant. Or take you on that European vacation, using the money she made, from the job she stole from you....Instead of whining, and making excuses, and feeling hatred towards the things men do to attract women, wouldn't it be a lot easier to hone those acts, so that you are more successful in your pursuit?
Some men seem like instead of improving to boost success, they would rather be lazy, and research studies, go on forums, and have a huge group cry...wtf?
You read an awful lot into my post that just wasn't there. But that's okay.
Since you seem concerned, I do just fine with the ladies. I'm enjoying the decline. It's easy pickins'.
Everyone, men and women included, in today's modern, enlightened world (lol) is functioning on the operating system of their basest, most self-serving desires....it's very easy to exploit.
Step 1 is taking everything in the OP's article, throwing it on the ground, spitting on it and crushing it beneath your boot.
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, and bring home-cooked treats in quite often. I have no desire to be in that 60-80 hour rat face, thank you very much.
for you so you have to make your own way without any expectancy of help.