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Old 02-21-2015, 09:19 AM
 
Location: back in Boston
371 posts, read 892,291 times
Reputation: 589

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I stumbled across "Self Made Man" at my local library. It was an interesting read, I recommend it.

 
Old 02-21-2015, 09:21 AM
 
4,613 posts, read 4,777,238 times
Reputation: 4097
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKelly View Post
It's harder for women to find someone who will stick around...
Now THIS is something I can empathize with. This is the sort of thing that (by comparison) I feel is easier for guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
I rejected plenty of women. I would get sometimes get messaged directly by women on OKC and never replied back. Not a common occurrence but it happened every few weeks when I was highly active on the site.

What people are talking about are attractive, charismatic women (yes, women need charisma too, their own version of it). They are the ones who can sit back and get approached.

My ex-gf is a very pretty girl - wholesome, girl-next-door type. But she's quiet and introverted, doesn't carry herself very confidently and dressed plainly in her day-to-day life. Her whole demeanor said "don't approach me" so guys didn't. She got asked out a grand total of about once a year by the age of 26 when we started dating, and only one of them was one she even liked a little. So not all women, not even all attractive ones, are bombarded with guys.
1) Online dating is its own different animal. We can have that conversation if you want, but "not replying to a message online" is hardly the same league here.

2) Regarding the underlined;
a) Nobody said anything about "all women"
b) Once a year is WAY more than the bulk of men get asked out, if you're trying to make a comparison. To many here, that still feels like "bombarded" by comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewdroplet76 View Post
The things that she discovered about how men are expected to not express their feelings and such - that is something that I can totally empathize with and understand.

But most of the dates she went on were arranged on the internet - so apparently she couldn't really pass in real life. Most of the people she met thought she was gay. And of course she found the dates brutal - she had absolutely no attraction to these women and they had no attraction to her. That's part of what makes dating fun - chemistry and attraction. And for her, there was none of either of these things.

Most of the posters on here who have addressed the article and not gotten into a contest about who has it the hardest have agreed that a straight woman dressed up as a man is not going to have the same experiences in dating as a straight man.

Do I agree that it must be really hard to approach people that you don't know? Of course. But I also think that it's hard to be a woman and never be approached. Furthermore, a lot of relationships do not start with cold approaches. Many people get to know each other through other avenues - and oftentimes people are interested in each other so the first step isn't as huge of a leap or as scary. Sometimes both people take the step together.

I'm not sure how to argue with the conclusions of a faulty premise.
I agree that the premise itself is faulted, but if you agree that the conditions it conveys exist, then argue those. I covered it above, but nobody really sympathizes with the "never getting approached" sentiment because it's something that both genders deal with. I don't get approached either, but what will the response be if I make a thread complaining about it? You know as well as I do.
 
Old 02-21-2015, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Katonah, NY
21,192 posts, read 25,088,385 times
Reputation: 22274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hivemind31 View Post
I know you didn't ask me, but I suspect my answers might reflect the opinions of those whom you did, (or at least resemble them), so here you go

1) Do you think that all women get the same attention from all men? Obviously not.

2) Do you think that every single woman could date any man that she chooses? Again, obviously not, but that's an extreme example, don't you think? There's more than a bit of difference between "wow, you seem to be able to get dates pretty freely" versus "any woman could date any man she wanted". Keep in mind that this is typically coming from men who can't get a date AT ALL, not men who "are only getting women they're not interested in", which is a common complaint I hear from women.

3) Do you think that there are subsets of women (examples): Of course there are. But very few men are going to have the slightest concern over what a woman's success is in GETTING ASKED OUT, because it still implies an absence of effort. To a guy, "I never get asked out" is akin to saying "I wasn't handed a job today". Even if a woman were to go so far as to tell stories about how she gets rejected when she asks men out, they're not going to believe her because THAT'S HOW INFREQUENTLY IT HAPPENS.

Those subsets you refer to? They're DRASTICALLY more concentrated among men, which is why a huge portion of men will simply think "so?" when they hear this complaint.

I have to admit that I'm in this same camp; I look at a woman who complains about not getting asked out like a man who complains that he wasn't handed a $20. And sadly (from an anecdotal perspective), I wouldn't even believe a woman who legitimately asked men out with any level of frequency, because I see it so infrequently.

If I knew a woman who asked men out and failed like men do...oh man, would my heart reach out to her. Seriously, that would SUCK, because we ALL know what that's like. But that one anecdotal story about that one time she asked a guy out and got rejected will fall on deaf ears; hell, picture a guy making that same statement. We even have a few of them on the board, and I have no sympathy for them either.

If you want something, go get it. Waiting for it to come get you makes you sound entitled, and for men, that's a HUGE turn off.
My question was asked in response to a specific post. The poster was upset because he felt that "women" made a certain subset of men work harder than another subset of men. My point was that not everyone is equal when it comes to dating - not even women. So saying that women shouldn't treat men differently from each other is ridiculous. We all treat everyone differently based on who we are, what we look like, etc. If we didn't - then we could just draw numbers out of a hat to find our partner.

I understand that a lot of men on here have no sympathy for women unless they ask out men all the time - and that's certainly your right. I see things differently. I feel sympathy toward anyone that has a hard time dating but I don't feel sympathy for people who blame their difficulties on an entire gender.
 
Old 02-21-2015, 09:33 AM
 
Location: "Silicon Valley" (part of San Francisco Bay Area, California, USA)
4,375 posts, read 4,048,102 times
Reputation: 2157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewdroplet76 View Post
Furthermore, a lot of relationships do not start with cold approaches. Many people get to know each other through other avenues - and oftentimes people are interested in each other so the first step isn't as huge of a leap or as scary. Sometimes both people take the step together.
This is the only method I feel comfortable using. But it hasn't worked, yet.
 
Old 02-21-2015, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Katonah, NY
21,192 posts, read 25,088,385 times
Reputation: 22274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hivemind31 View Post


I agree that the premise itself is faulted, but if you agree that the conditions it conveys exist, then argue those. I covered it above, but nobody really sympathizes with the "never getting approached" sentiment because it's something that both genders deal with. I don't get approached either, but what will the response be if I make a thread complaining about it? You know as well as I do.
I have never seen a thread from a woman trying to get people to sympathize with her for never getting approached. I would tell a woman complaining of this the same thing that I would tell a man - but I have never seen such a thread. I know plenty of women that never get approached - and to be honest, I don't think that approaching men would make much of a difference. They don't seem to be very bitter about it - at least not that they have shared with me. I think they have low self esteem in general - so they don't really blame anyone but themselves. And, unlike you, I greatly sympathize with women who never get approached. So much of a woman's value is based on her appearance. Things are changing and people are making more of an effort to not buy into this - but there is still a lot of truth in this. So, if you are a woman and you go out, and your friends are constantly getting hit on and approached and you are constantly completely ignored - it can really affect your self esteem. If you are basically told that you have to be attractive in order to be valued - and you simply aren't attractive - it's a hard pill to swallow. I also feel for men that are constantly rejected by women that they have feelings for. But when those men in turn blame ALL women - it's hard to feel as sorry for them.

I already said that I'm sure it's very hard to cold approach people - but I've never though that this was the only or even the best way to go about dating. And I still do not believe that a woman dressed up as a man can really comprehend what approaching is like since she didn't have any attraction or sexual interest in the women that she was approaching. Basically, I find the premise so faulted that I can't give any credence to her findings when it comes to dating. If there was a study that followed a group of men and women and their dating lives with interviews and videos, that would be much more accurate, IMO.

I have had it VERY easy when it comes to dating and relationships - but so have most of the men that I've dated and had relationships with. I wish everyone could have it easy but it's simply not the way things are. I don't separate my sympathies by gender - I don't feel sorry for men and not for women or vice versa. I wish that everyone could find the happiness that they want.
 
Old 02-21-2015, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Nashville, TN -
9,588 posts, read 5,797,385 times
Reputation: 11115
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeSmith357 View Post

If the woman is halfway attractive, say, a 5 or better, not grossly overweight, she can get dates. If she can hold a conversation and is not clingy, she can have a relationship
Well, we know that she CAN have a relationship.

But does it occur to you that women don't often meet men they WANT to have relationships with? See, 'cuz women actually might be looking for particular qualities in a men that are very rare. Finding someone to have sex with is easy. But finding someone you're very attracted to and with whom you feel great chemistry, someone you like and respect and admire, someone you can trust and on whom you can depend, and someone you could actually deal with on a daily basis (ie. live with) is like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack.

The dating world is NOT easy for women. Perhaps men have more difficulties in certain respects, but it's no walk in the park for women, either. The sooner you guys finally accept that, the less frustrated and angry you'll feel, and the better your dating and relationship experiences will be.
 
Old 02-21-2015, 09:48 AM
 
2,183 posts, read 2,195,075 times
Reputation: 1852
Quote:
Originally Posted by griffon652 View Post
Its not a mind game, at least not this part (though I freely admit that women play mind games).When I said those men need to work harder for the same amount of attention, it's not me saying that they can get the same women that the 10% are getting. What I'm saying is the men that are more attractive to women have a higher probability that the women they are approaching will find them attractive. Just to clarify for the rest of my post, for men when I use the word attractive I don't mean just physically. I mean the whole package because women can be turned out initially by many different qualities of a man besides looks.

As others have pointed out, not all women are equally attractive either. For women when I use the word attractive I'm talking about looks because initially that's all most men care about. I just broke down the numbers in a simple manner because otherwise my post would have been too long. Obviously there is an inverse relationship between the attractiveness of a women and a mans likelihood of being rejected when he approaches her. This is because she has more options so she can afford to be picky. So an average guys rejection rate goes up exponentially when approaching attractive women. And if they hit on less attractive women, the chances of success goes up.

So when I say guys have to work hard, they have to exponentially work harder (if they are average or below) to have a chance to date the hot girls. If your only going to hit on girls that are a 9 or 10 expected to be rejected A LOT if your an average guy. Meaning instead of getting a date every 5-10 girls you ask, it will go up to every 30-60. So its not that ALL women will force another subset to "work harder" its that the attractive ones will outright reject most guys NO MATTER HOW HARD YOU WORK because they have more/better options. I mean seriously try to take your rose colored one sided glasses off and ask yourself this: Lets say by some miracle you became the women equivalent of a guy who is seen as a 10 to women and they approached you. If you were being approached by 3-4 girls that look like Adriana Lima every week, why the hell would you even consider dating any girl that's average? 99.9% of guys in that situation wouldn't even look at average or even pretty cute women. So why blame a women for doing the same?

When I said an average guy can date if he works harder what I meant was:

1. First he has to work on his personality, conversation skills, flirting skills and approaching conversation with women.

2. He has to dress decent

3. At least somewhat take care of himself physically.

4. Then he has to approach a lot of women.

5. He also can't be too picky. Meaning a guy that only wants to date 8,9 and 10's.

If he does all of the above he will most definitely be able to date. Your post makes it sound like all women are picky ***ches who as a gender reject 50% of the male population outright. Only the really attractive ones do that. The truth is most men that aren't dating are doing it to themselves. Its called putting effort into what you want,just like anything else in life. Do you think the majority of the USA is overweight/obese because of genetics?? Its because they are too frickin lazy/undisciplined to stay on a proper diet and fitness plan. Like I said there are probably 10% of men that are naturally frozen. The rest simply aren't doing what they need to do to be successful at dating. And that most definitely is not a woman's fault or problem.
I didn't mean the same women. Yes some men do it to themselves but some just will never be attractive to women no matter what they do. No blaming anyone its just a part of life. It is what it is. That's why I disagree with your premise that most men date.
 
Old 02-21-2015, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Nashville, TN -
9,588 posts, read 5,797,385 times
Reputation: 11115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chowhound View Post
The same can be said for men, most men don't looks as good as they did when they were in their 20's, have baggage and kids, and don't offer as much physically as they did in their 20', and 30's.

Women have a bit of a leg up in the initial phase, in that more of the men are expected to do more of the approaching, but it terms of real relationships and finding real compatibly, I think it's pretty equal between both sexes.
This. ^
 
Old 02-21-2015, 09:52 AM
 
Location: "Silicon Valley" (part of San Francisco Bay Area, California, USA)
4,375 posts, read 4,048,102 times
Reputation: 2157
So I just read the article in the original post and it is in fact about Norah Vincent, that's the lesbian who passed as a man in various venues and wrote the book Self Made Man.

The people who are saying she just did it online are incorrect.

Quote:
Vincent said strip joints are about pure sex drive -- completely empty of any meaningful interaction, even when a woman is gyrating on your lap.
Even though Vincent is attracted to women, she said she was never aroused during her visits to the clubs. "I really ran smack up against the difference between male and female sexuality. It's that female sexuality is mental. ... For a man, it's an urge," she said.
"At its core, it's a bodily function. It's a necessity. It's such a powerful drive and I think because we [women] don't have testosterone in our systems, we don't understand how hard it is," she said.

Vincent even dabbled in the art of picking up women and agreed to wear a hidden camera for "20/20" during her exploits.
She was quickly reminded that in this arena, it's women who have the power, she said.
"In fact, we sit there and we just with one word, 'no,' will crush someone," she said. "We don't have to do the part where you cross the room and you go up to a stranger that you've never met in the middle of a room full of people and say the first words. And those first words are so hard to say without sounding like a cheeseball or sounding like a jerk."
Vincent encountered some pretty cold shoulders in her attempts at the bar, but she did manage to go on about 30 dates with women as "Ned," mostly arranging them on the Internet.
Vincent said the dates were rarely fun and that the pressure of "Ned" having to prove himself was grueling. She was surprised that many women had no interest in a soft, vulnerable man.
"My prejudice was that the ideal man is a woman in a man's body. And I learned, no, that's really not. There are a lot of women out there who really want a manly man, and they want his stoicism," she said.
So, she is attracted to women; she's a lesbian. And she did go into a bar and try to pick up straight women. She also did it online and found more success that way.

I'm more on the soft side, myself. A beta male. And she's right, that might be part of my problem. That might be part of what makes me "nice, but...". It's who I am, though. If I were to change that, I would be a completely different person. And I want to be who I am. Social mistakes, awkward interactions and all.

Of course I'm manly when I need to be; I was in the US Navy and I'm trained in various firearms. I fought two fires while submerged on the submarine (although they were out quickly). I've saved a couple different women from assault by other men.

But in daily life, while my gender expression is entirely male, my actions and demeanor are those of a beta male. Maybe that means I'll be forever alone, as it often feels. I don't know.

I haven't really tried to date because it isn't something that interests me. Two problems:

(1) the vast majority of women hold no romantic interest for me. I want to sleep with them but not be in a relationship with them. So therefore I wouldn't ask them out. I've only met five people for whom I actually have romantic feelings. As opposed to feeling sexual lust to some degree for about 80% of the women I encounter.

(2) I'm socially awkward so I wouldn't really know how to cold approach, even if I wished to do so.

Of course, there's also the financial/logistical issues in my life that would make a relationship not a good idea right now (no car/don't know how to drive, inadequate job, renting a living room).
 
Old 02-21-2015, 09:58 AM
 
2,183 posts, read 2,195,075 times
Reputation: 1852
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewdroplet76 View Post
My question was asked in response to a specific post. The poster was upset because he felt that "women" made a certain subset of men work harder than another subset of men. My point was that not everyone is equal when it comes to dating - not even women. So saying that women shouldn't treat men differently from each other is ridiculous. We all treat everyone differently based on who we are, what we look like, etc. If we didn't - then we could just draw numbers out of a hat to find our partner.

I understand that a lot of men on here have no sympathy for women unless they ask out men all the time - and that's certainly your right. I see things differently. I feel sympathy toward anyone that has a hard time dating but I don't feel sympathy for people who blame their difficulties on an entire gender.
1: I wasn't upset merely stating the illogic of the idea.
2: I wasn't blaming anyone
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