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And, of course, you KNOW what everyone "understands"? Please....
This IS a silly argument, yes. But, you know, when *I'm* being lumped into a group that is being looked down upon, simply because they're not native, I'm sure as heck going to defend myself. Because, truth be told, I just detest people thinking that they somehow *know* who I am because I'm "Anglo" or whatever the proper term is for "non-native". Because, they don't. Plain, simple, honest truth.
You have your views and I have mine. But, honestly, don't think that you "understand" me in any way, other than the way I've presented myself here. Because, unless you know me from outside this forum, you have no clue, whatsoever, who I am and what I hold dear. Thanks.
EDITED TO ADD:
And, what YOU accept is your own prerogative. If you're willing to be part of the culture, that's your choice. But, honestly, don't have this attitude that "we have no clue" and expect no backlash. Because, fact of the matter is, if you cared to look past the tip of your own nose when it came to this, you'd see that a whole heck of a lot of people *do* understand.
I am not saying I know everything nor am I attacking you, however your getting quite upset. I apologize if I offended you but you should have already expected this going in.
I am sorry if you are getting dumped into a group but these are traditions and beliefs they have held very dear for hundreds of years. Do not take this the wrong way but what makes you feel as if they should change them for you all of the sudden?
Again just look at it from an outside box because your situation is very different from what mine was. So I am looking at yours from up in a tree on the outside.
Do not look down on their beliefs, do not get upset at their beliefs, they are ENTITLED to them, and have held them for hundreds of years, something the foreigners do not do very well.
And here I sit a blond hair, blue eye man who had to prove he was of this family and had to come to accept that I would not be allowed in many things. Did I protest, NO I was lucky to have been accepted, do I have a right to protest no, because I am not a pure breed.
Can I accept the fact it will always be this way, yes because I shouldn't expect them to change the ways their ancestors did just to accomodate me!!
TRICKERY,
1. I'm not looking down on his tribe's beliefs and whatnot. You are reading my post all wrong. I am INSULTED at their way of excluding non-tribal-member MOTHERS of their tribal children, but no way did I ever say that his tribe is (insert whatever negative words you can find). His culture is the most peaceful I have yet to find in any other culture.
2. You say that you don't have the right to protest the fact that YOU are being excluded because you look more white than Native... that you are not pure breed... I must disagree with you on that one. You DESERVE to be included, so where did you get the idea that only pure breeds have full access to the culture? You need to get that idea out of your head and start being proactive about where you SHOULD fit in.
when *I'm* being lumped into a group that is being looked down upon, simply because they're not native, I'm sure as heck going to defend myself. if you cared to look past the tip of your own nose when it came to this, you'd see that a whole heck of a lot of people *do* understand.
If someone chooses to get defensive, that is a choice they make. No one ever needs to defend, justify, or explain the way they choose to live their life.
The people who have posted here providing insight into tribal ways of living are speaking with great patience, generosity, and open heart, and that stems from a desire to build a bridge of peace and understanding.
Individual people of every race and culture are always known and recognized by how we move, walk, act, and speak in the world, what we carry in our hearts, how we treat each other.
This thread opened asking about certain tribal customs and why those might be in place, and led to discussion of some general differences between indigenous ways and non-indigenous ways that can lead to misunderstandings. It is never about an individual person, so there is no personal attack. It is discussing behavior, actions, beliefs, and attitudes. There are differences in belief systems. And there are always individual exceptions to those generalizations. It is possible to discuss both.
Aho.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 02-01-2008 at 09:05 AM..
Different cultures will always run into a conflict, but yes, the conflict can be resolved w/ some understanding, or if not understanding, then the respect that whatever it is in conflict will be there. I, for one, was not putting down any culture, but I can't help but feel insulted as a woman/ future mother (down the road) of their future tribal member(s). Also, I don't want to repeat what his mother has been doing all along: she has been resisting her son's culture to a level lower than I could think of... it's not good when the mother is not being a good example of how to deal with the tribe culture..
Well, actually, like ANY culture, there are still room for improvement, but hey, nothing is perfect. Did you hear in the news that the Cherokee dis-enroll their tribal members who have traces of family history back to the slaves (that is, the Cherokee tribe disenroll those of black slaves heritage)? Tell me that's not mind-boggling. I cannot believe it when I saw it in the news!
Well, actually, like ANY culture, there are still room for improvement, but hey, nothing is perfect. Did you hear in the news that the Cherokee dis-enroll their tribal members who have traces of family history back to the slaves (that is, the Cherokee tribe disenroll those of black slaves heritage)? Tell me that's not mind-boggling. I cannot believe it when I saw it in the news!
Yes it is unfortunate that my people( Tsalgia ) had to do such a thing and although I do not agree with it, these are the politics of the tribe, these are the Oklahoma branch, I am from the Eastern branch of our people, the original homeland, we have not done that, so as you can see there are even differences and disagreements among our own people. osay
Yes it is unfortunate that my people( Tsalgia ) had to do such a thing and although I do not agree with it, these are the politics of the tribe, these are the Oklahoma branch, I am from the Eastern branch of our people, the original homeland, we have not done that, so as you can see there are even differences and disagreements among our own people. osay
Well, hopefully we have giving you some good information and maybe educate you a little bit in our ways and that you will go away from here a much wiser and understanding person,if we have done that, then that is a good thing.osay
Did you hear in the news that the Cherokee dis-enroll their tribal members who have traces of family history back to the slaves (that is, the Cherokee tribe disenroll those of black slaves heritage)?
That's a more complicated issue than what's generally reported and it's not a recent phenomenon. It's been going on since the Civil War.
The Cherokees always held slaves. When they lived in the East, they adopted the ways of the Europeans and purchased Negro slaves to use in their extensive agricultural endeavors.
When they migrated to Oklahoma in the 1830's (Trail of Tears), they brought their black slaves with them. Being slaveholders, the Cherokees sided with the Confederacy and sent many of their slaves to fight in the war.
With the signing of the Emancipation Act, they were forced to free their slaves, most of which continued to live on Cherokee lands and within the only culture they knew. This of course led to much interbreeding and complicated the question of who was a Cherokee and who was a Freedman. After emancipation, as the result of various treaties and court decisions, the Freedmen were variously considered tribal members, non-members, or members with limited rights.
This was further complicated by the influx of thousands of freed slaves from the South. By the turn of the century, Blacks made up more than half of the total population of Indian Territory, which was about to become the Sate of Oklahoma.
There were many towns founded by former slaves during this period populated by both Blacks and Indians. This resulted in many families of mixed Cherokee-Black heritage, who were not descendents of the original Freedman.
The problem for the descendents of the Freedmen was that unless they appeared on certain historical documents and could directly trace their lineage, they could not legally prove their Cherokee origins. It was much easier for the other Black Cherokees to be tribal members as long as they could meet blood quantum requirements and show ancestry which, by that time had become much easier because of church, civil, and tribal records.
Today, there are two distinct lines of though about Cherokee bloodlines. One advocates the elimination of the descends of the Freedmen on historical and legal grounds, while the other, a more racist attitude, favors eliminating all Black Cherokees from the tribal roles.
Of course there are also many voices within the tribe which oppose both of those positions on humanitarian grounds and argue that there would be no issue at all if were not for purely material considerations, or even worse, racial prejudice.
I haven't thought about this for years. But it was a conversation that filled many hours one night as I shared a gallon of home brew with my ex in-laws in the little town of Boley, Oklahoma. On the wall was a picture of my wife's three aunts. One was very dark, one looked white, and one had medium toned skin. They all had long black straight hair and Native American features. They called themselves "Colored Indians". The White world called them Negroes, among other things.
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