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I don't doubt that people--men or women--have observed common behaviors in the people they've dated. Humans tend to be creatures of habit, most of us develop patterns in who we're attracted to or who approaches us, and change is hard. There are also regional differences, and differences between urban, suburban, and rural cultures. But it's easier to complain about an entire gender than to find our own patterns and try to break them, or pack up and move to a place where we're going to fit in better.
The only things that irritate me are when people ask for input and then get defensive or explain why every single bit of advice offered to them won't work (shooting down those who are trying to help is, quite frankly, the mark of an ungrateful, self-absorbed jerk), and when people try to put words in other people's mouths.
Um, about that last bit... I had some really nasty difficulties early this year, and I did have to say, "Thank you, but I'm not going to do that. I swear I have strong, well thought out reasons, and I'd be happy to share them with you." And I got a lot of pushback on that. I was told that in no time, it would be read on the news that my family had been killed by the crazy man in our midst. I'm sure I've lost some brain cells having to provide therapy sessions to him while he talked his way through his issues (he refuses to consistently see a professional, but makes me listen to him talk for HOURS every day if I let him)...but aside from my poor brain cells, there have been no other casualties of my ex. And some of those bits of advice would have seen me and my kids thrust into homelessness and poverty that would have been really hard to recover from, and honestly I do think my outcome, tiresome though it is, has been better than that.
Now. Topic.
I use the forum as a means to try and inspect an issue that is on my mind from every possible angle before deciding anything. I don't want to miss any possibility, I always want to "look before I leap" (Capricorn stuff.)
As for giving men a hard time...at first I'm generally all sincere in my desire to help. It's only when they persist or say something really outrageous that I either call shenanigans or get sarcastic. I try not to be hurtful, and I never want to kick someone when they're down. And yes, there are a FEW posters who are outspokenly judgmental to women, and there are a FEW posters who are outspokenly judgmental towards men. Not everyone is tolerant. Some people are jerks. Whaddya gonna do?
It is SO pointless to rant and rave about which gender has it worse. OMG, we are human, we all have stuff. Issues. Challenges. Hardships. Things we're trying to understand about ourselves and others and why forming relationships can be hard, and keeping them even harder. But you know what I love? When someone finds an actual bias in one of MY posts, and points it out to me, and I see it, and I am like, "Holy cow you're right!" and then I get a chance to learn. To grow. To apologize, and to be more like the me I WANT to be.
So I figure I'm on the path to comedy greatness....
LOL, I've also been making the funeral circuit. The last couple of funerals I got up and spoke and was able to work in several good legit laughs, good natured comedy of course, while paying my respects......
Not long ago, I was present when a dear relative passed away, and the fellows from the crematorium were called to take the corpse away. They arrived, and in very professional fashion wrapped the corpse in a cloth, transferring it onto a waiting gurney, and then tightened belts at the torso and the legs, thus strapping the corpse to the gurney. Watching this, I couldn't help exclaiming: "Normally I'd agree that seat belts save lives, but aren't you guys a bit too late this time"?
I have noticed the attitude towards the more awkward male participants in this sub-forum by some of the female participants to be a bit judgmental and by "a bit" I mean "very".
Granted there are a few male participants who regularly come off as disturbed sociopaths as if they are debating on whether they should become the next Ted Bundy or Elliot Rodger (one is immediately coming to mind, but I'm not going to name any names). There are few guys here who are so creepy, misanthropic, self-centered, and seething with resentment that they aren't far away from posting YouTube videos declaring themselves to be a "Supreme Gentleman", but there are maybe like two guys like that on here. Once again, not naming any names.
However most of them are just confused and inexperienced. Sometimes it seems all that is needed to be branded "creepy" or "a loser" is asking for advice or needing help on this forum.
This is about them.
The thing is that courtship, relationships, and dating don't come naturally to a lot of men. Some are naturally shy, some are a bit awkward, some never had a notable male role model (like a 1/3 of all children), some have a hard time distinguishing between friendly behavior and flirting behavior (actually, a lot of men have that problem), some were late bloomers and might not have even had a woman notice them until their 20s, many have low self-esteem, some might are self-conscious and are worried about scaring women off, some might have been abused as children by their parents and have a hard time maintaining healthy emotional bonds, and countless other reasons.
The point is that they are still learning. Do they sometimes say stupid things? Yeah. Are they often bitter? Yeah. Sometimes people who are uneducated are wrong. Sometimes people are frustrated that what seems to be easy for everyone else seems nearly impossible to them. So, yeah, sometimes they lash out. They out at men and at women. They vent. They rant. They whine.
It's not something a lot of people can talk about with their friends and family. And some of these guys don't even have much in the way of that. So they slink off to an internet forum where they write a long-winded, stream-of-consciousness rant about their dysfunctional or non-existent love/sex life in hopes that maybe could learn something or maybe just have someone acknowledge their frustration for once or even just tell him that he is not alone.
Then several rancorous vipers descend upon him and tell him that it is no wonder he is alone. Because the best way to deal with damaged people is to belittle them when they are seeking help and I am sure that it will not reinforce any negative views that might have of women. There is often a distinct lack of empathy towards the men who are often more deserving of compassion than contempt. You don't know what has gone on in someone's life between being conceived and hitting "Submit New Thread".
I know a few are going to proclaim themselves as speakers of a harsh truth. Well, good for you. We'll keep that in mind for when you might need a little bit of harsh truth yourself and I have a funny feeling that you might not like what others might have to say. That "harsh truth" is sometimes a bit more like kicking someone when they're down. But, hey, glass houses and stones; am I right?
But for the non-reptiles, I am not saying that these men should be indulged and remain free from criticism. Far from it. Constructive criticism is essential to building social skills. I am merely calling for a bit of understanding and tolerance. You ever wondered where PUAs and MGTOW come from? Most of them used to be those type of guys and they didn't receive the support they needed and they ended up deciding to either devote their lives to chasing sex or spend their entire lives to militantly avoiding it and they end up drifting into these preexisting cults which replace misinformed views on women with a palpable hatred of women (although in all fairness, not all MGTOW are misogynists, but there is definitely a sizable element that absolutely despise women).
Just keep that in mind.
Bravo! Great post!
Unfortunately, most people (especially women) do not understand these issues. You will find the same IRL.
I think the folks who get the most out of this forum are the ones that are wise enough to not take this place too seriously, and that know how to identify and filter out the white noise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big Lebowski Dude
First of all, I'm sure the following post will come across as hard-hearted, un-sympathetic, etc. towards people who need a lot of "help" when it comes to dating, relationships, etc:
When it comes to dating/relationships, the bottom-line is this: there is absolutely no substitute for experience. I'm in my mid-40's, and started dating in my teens - well before there were Internet forums like this for people to go to & discuss their problems/issues/questions. I just had to feel my way through the whole thing, and learn by doing.
There is also obviously something called "instinct" and being able to read/interpret/understand verbal cues/hints & non-verbal unspoken cues, body language, etc. Being able to do so is extremely important when it comes to not only dating, but in other relationships you have with people - i.e. co-workers, companies you do business with, etc. Some people instinctively have this, and apparently many don't. If you can't read non-verbal cues & body language when it comes to dating & in other aspects of your life, then, to be honest, you're going to have problems - and reading "advice" on internet forums like this isn't going to help you.
Going along with this, I see a lot of people on here who are apparently using forums like this as "go to" places to talk about their relationship problems. Well, what did people do before forums like this? Again, they just felt their way through the whole thing & dealt with the issues/concerns that came up. I also see forums like this as harmful rather than helpful when it comes to things like dating , because, unfortunately, people seem to come to depend on them.
Good post. I'd say though that I think most people actually DO have instinct and intuition and ARE capable of reading verbal/non-verbal cues and body language. I think a person who truly lacks those things probably has an EQ (emotional intelligence) that is well below average, and thus would probably have difficulty keeping a job in a team-oriented environment, maintaining close friendships, date, etc. I mean, most people can easily and effortlessly tell when someone's overtly pissed off, or excited, or depressed. Cues relevant to interest, dating, intimacy, etc shouldn't be all that much harder to decipher with decent accuracy. There's something else in the mix here that is suppressing or preventing some folks from utilizing their instinct and intuition. I think some of them were never really taught social awareness and never learned critical thinking skills, they were insufficiently socialized, and they grew up thinking that the whole world was like a big ol' instruction manual that they simply had to follow in order for "good things to happen"...when the real world is actually the complete opposite of that. That includes some guys' strange (and incorrect) viewpoints on women.
I also think that a lot of people who struggle simply don't try, and they don't pay attention to the world around them. They make things way harder for themselves by overthinking and overanalyzing. They care too much about silly petty details, results and outcome. They're too afraid; they lack self-esteem. The internet and technology in general just made this mindset worse. Forums like this one are just an outlet, a sounding board, for them. Like you said, dating/relationships is not something that a person can "prepare" for in advance with books, friends or the internet. Sure, there may be a good tip here and there from those sources, but 95% of what people learn in dating...they learn on-the-fly by just diving into it with an open mind. I.E. hands-on experience. A big reason for that is that dating/relationships are subjective to a large extent...what may have worked well for your best friend and his S.O. may not work for you and your girlfriend. Core personality, character, moral compass, genetic wiring, past life experiences, hobbies...all can influence what works, what doesn't, who you connect well with, and so on.
I agree with the OP that dating does not come naturally to young people in their teens and twenties as if someone snapped their fingers and then voila. Mistakes, errors in judgment, misunderstandings, etc. will happen, that's a guarantee...and people learn from them (if they're willing). And even then, highly experienced people still do stupid stuff and say ill-advised things on dates from time to time. However, most people who had a decent and varied amount of social interaction, fun and life experiences with their friends and other peers (both boys AND girls) during childhood will pretty much be "ready" to transition into the world of dating once they reach their mid-to-late teens or early 20s. It's like the next rung on the ladder for them. I would go as far as to say that a person (especially a young adult) won't truly know himself or herself on a deep level until he or she has been in at least one romantic relationship, or at least has had a decent number of dates and intimate encounters. You learn a lot about yourself when you become close and vulnerable with someone and ride all the highs and lows that go along with that.
15-20 years ago, most young men/boys and women/girls were willing to experiment, explore and journey...hell it was even fun for a lot of them. They followed their natural curiosities. (Man sees woman, he likes what he sees, he goes to chat with her, that goes well...laughs/flirting/etc, they go out on a date. Pretty simple.) They were also more willing to work for what they wanted...and that too was fun for some of them. Nowadays, a lot more young people (men/boys especially) are more accustomed to (or worse, expect) having everything be handed to them on a silver platter with a bow on top. (That said, there are other things that are far better today than they were several decades ago.)
I think the folks who get the most out of this forum are the ones that are wise enough to not take this place too seriously, and that know how to identify and filter out the white noise.
Good post. I'd say though that I think most people actually DO have instinct and intuition and ARE capable of reading verbal/non-verbal cues and body language. I think a person who truly lacks those things probably has an EQ (emotional intelligence) that is well below average, and thus would probably have difficulty keeping a job in a team-oriented environment, maintaining close friendships, date, etc. I mean, most people can easily and effortlessly tell when someone's overtly pissed off, or excited, or depressed. Cues relevant to interest, dating, intimacy, etc shouldn't be all that much harder to decipher with decent accuracy. There's something else in the mix here that is suppressing or preventing some folks from utilizing their instinct and intuition. I think some of them were never really taught social awareness and never learned critical thinking skills, they were insufficiently socialized, and they grew up thinking that the whole world was like a big ol' instruction manual that they simply had to follow in order for "good things to happen"...when the real world is actually the complete opposite of that. That includes some guys' strange (and incorrect) viewpoints on women.
I also think that a lot of people who struggle simply don't try, and they don't pay attention to the world around them. They make things way harder for themselves by overthinking and overanalyzing. They care too much about silly petty details, results and outcome. They're too afraid; they lack self-esteem. The internet and technology in general just made this mindset worse. Forums like this one are just an outlet, a sounding board, for them. Like you said, dating/relationships is not something that a person can "prepare" for in advance with books, friends or the internet. Sure, there may be a good tip here and there from those sources, but 95% of what people learn in dating...they learn on-the-fly by just diving into it with an open mind. I.E. hands-on experience. A big reason for that is that dating/relationships are subjective to a large extent...what may have worked well for your best friend and his S.O. may not work for you and your girlfriend. Core personality, character, moral compass, genetic wiring, past life experiences, hobbies...all can influence what works, what doesn't, who you connect well with, and so on.
I agree with the OP that dating does not come naturally to young people in their teens and twenties as if someone snapped their fingers and then voila. Mistakes, errors in judgment, misunderstandings, etc. will happen, that's a guarantee...and people learn from them (if they're willing). And even then, highly experienced people still do stupid stuff and say ill-advised things on dates from time to time. However, most people who had a decent and varied amount of social interaction, fun and life experiences with their friends and other peers (both boys AND girls) during childhood will pretty much be "ready" to transition into the world of dating once they reach their mid-to-late teens or early 20s. It's like the next rung on the ladder for them. I would go as far as to say that a person (especially a young adult) won't truly know himself or herself on a deep level until he or she has been in at least one romantic relationship, or at least has had a decent number of dates and intimate encounters. You learn a lot about yourself when you become close and vulnerable with someone and ride all the highs and lows that go along with that.
15-20 years ago, most young men/boys and women/girls were willing to experiment, explore and journey...hell it was even fun for a lot of them. They followed their natural curiosities. (Man sees woman, he likes what he sees, he goes to chat with her, that goes well...laughs/flirting/etc, they go out on a date. Pretty simple.) They were also more willing to work for what they wanted...and that too was fun for some of them. Nowadays, a lot more young people (men/boys especially) are more accustomed to (or worse, expect) having everything be handed to them on a silver platter with a bow on top. (That said, there are other things that are far better today than they were several decades ago.)
It's funny how you single out men. In fact you tend to do this in every posts.
There are also a lot of guys here that have been burned or brokenhearted by a mean girl in their teen years, and never been able to get over that, and now they hate women.
Heck, i ve been btokenhearted too! A lot! And dated some class A doucheb**s! And was chated on by the love of my life! I should be thinking that men are sc*m! But i know better. I know men are great companions, i know how great the love between a man and a woman can be. I know men can be sweet, sensitive, incredibly loving, generous, kind and good hearted. Heck! My men is the kindest and most good hearted person i ever knew (including women).
So, yeah, some people shouldnt be bitter or hate the other sex cause they are missing on something great.
Excellent points.
A lot of people become embittered by the opposite sex in their teens or early twenties. Usually, it happens in their mid teens (seems to be the most common age when people start to despise the opposite sex).
I think both sexes have it bad, but in different ways.
One of the problems I think is that much is made about basically being in service to the opposite sex and when people find themselves (real or imagined) unfit for service; that it really messes with their head. Often to the point of poisoning their personalities.
15-20 years ago, most young men/boys and women/girls were willing to experiment, explore and journey...hell it was even fun for a lot of them. They followed their natural curiosities. (Man sees woman, he likes what he sees, he goes to chat with her, that goes well...laughs/flirting/etc, they go out on a date. Pretty simple.) They were also more willing to work for what they wanted...and that too was fun for some of them. Nowadays, a lot more young people (men/boys especially) are more accustomed to (or worse, expect) having everything be handed to them on a silver platter with a bow on top. (That said, there are other things that are far better today than they were several decades ago.)
In an earlier post, parenting was blamed for some/most of this issue. However, I don't blame parenting at all - I blame the dependence on & easy access to technology, i.e. I-phones/smart-phones. Some people are so dependent on their I-phones that they have no idea how to deal with people in the "real world". They're plugged into these things 24-7.
No doubt there are nasty forums out there and there's been a couple of people from this forum on them and some of the vitriol they spewed was bad.
Yeah, the POC forum is full of people that are just dripping with condescension when you interact with them, I find myself getting really f ing hot when I'm on that board.
Yeah, but that is politics and pretty much everyone is willing to throwdown on that forum.
I actually think we might have had an exchange on there. Your name does look familiar.
But even if we have; no hard feelings outside the warzone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberty2011
I absolutely agree with this. When I see some of the posts, I really wonder where the parents are/were. Actually, in the past year there ended up being a post along that line, and what I found sad and unsurprising is that some of the more lost, and/or angry and/od angsty posters had absentee fathers/uninvolved parents.
About a third of all kids don't have their father in their life. Now sometimes he beat feet and ran off and in some cases the mother is the one refusing contact.
I am sure this has some effect on guys who are confused about their masculinity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by usayit
There's a lot of hating a stereotyping of men as well (topic touched on by the opening post of this thread) We are biased towards our own gender.... its natural to see what we want to see or sensitive to. .
However, I actually see both gender's dishing it out.
That's why I acknowledged that there are a few guys who go beyond just frustrated to the point where there is genuine contempt or even hatred towards women.
What I'd like to do is talk down to some parents of Millennials, men or women. They fell asleep at the wheel in teaching their kids how to interact with and live in the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberty2011
I absolutely agree with this. When I see some of the posts, I really wonder where the parents are/were. Actually, in the past year there ended up being a post along that line, and what I found sad and unsurprising is that some of the more lost, and/or angry and/od angsty posters had absentee fathers/uninvolved parents.
I agree, too. That is awful and I guess, a sign of the times. Things increasingly became this way - more detachment, cheating, separating, divorcing (again, due to influences). Parents became so wrapped up in succeeding and maintaining a lifestyle or otherwise just not being present.
I will say too, with an increased focus on female perfection and imagery, including video games having added to a perception of females, besides not having been shown examples of warmth, stability and reality - no wonder. There is apparently a lot of emptiness, superficial reasoning and emotional issues that inhibit from making positive and deep connections to others.
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