Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
They don't. I understand some women say that and then never ask men out, and I think that's a copout. The four men who have been significant in my dating history, I asked ALL of them out.
I get that it's all about ROI for some people. I don't look at it that way. If I want to get to get to know my new neighbors, I don't invite them over for a barbecue, then ask them to bring half the food. They might turn out to be good friends, or they might be indifferent or even insufferable. I'll be out the money I spent on their food regardless ... and that's OK.
I said nothing about ROI. I realize that some men who are most concerned about this have, but I haven't. The money, the opportunity cost, none of that concerns me in the least. It is about the default expectation that I put my neck out and pay for the privilege
Regarding your dating history, do you think it's typical? I think men do the asking about 80% of the time, and the only reason for that is a social construct that places that expectation on men. This site is full of comments from women clearly stating that women want men as much as men want women. Women may handle being single better than men, but if they do that's not because men want women more and therefore should invest more commensurate with their desire, but rather because women seem to be better at getting their emotional needs met through friends than men are. So men more often pursue women. That's not etched in stone anywhere, and your experience shows that, but it's very common that the man ask and it's generally expected. So if he who asks, pays, the he will pay the vast majority of the time.
In your neighbor example, what if some families were always expected to ask other families over, at least early on? What if a significant % of the families who wait to be invited places and paid for thought it odd that the families who were expected to invite and pay sometimes felt like that was out of round somehow? What if the families accustomed to getting invitations called those families expected to do the inviting and expected to pay for the night cheap or losers because they wouldn't just pony up? Wouldn't that seem weird? It would to me. It does, in fact.
Regarding neighbors, I do think there's an expectation that the more established neighbor will reach out to the newer neighbor. The role of host is the stronger role, in my opinion. The host may lead and guide the new neighbor by making introductions and warning them about other neighbors to be wary of, the best markets to shop, that sort of thing.
Being a host is a dominate, leadership role.
If the more established senior neighbor complained that his new neighbors didn't invite him over, or complained about having to pay for the hot dogs he bought for his "welcome to the neighborhood" bbq, I think that would be pretty weird.
But when it comes to dating, I feel that the main reason why men do the asking 80% of the time is simply because their attraction to a woman is more immediate than vice versa. If women were expected to approach, they would take their own sweet time and they would aim high. Low status men wouldn't stand a chance.
Last edited by Butterflyfish; 03-16-2016 at 02:18 AM..
I can see your point. If I'm having an amazing time with this person and feel that I want to see them more, I'm not gonna mind paying. If the date sucks, having to pay her check just adds insult to injury in addition to just wanting to get the hell away from her.
I appreciate your honesty, The Dissenter. Thank you for sharing your truth, even while knowing it would be unpopular. In my opinion, it's a more common view than many people are willing to admit. If a man likes a woman, he will not mind paying. If a man asks his date to pay or go dutch, he isn't serious about her. That's the bottom line and it coincides with my dating experience.
And if I offer or insist on paying while on a date, it is my non-verbal way of letting you know that there won't be a second date.
I said nothing about ROI. I realize that some men who are most concerned about this have, but I haven't. The money, the opportunity cost, none of that concerns me in the least. It is about the default expectation that I put my neck out and pay for the privilege
I said "some people," not you. There are social expectations that irritate me too, so I hear you.
Quote:
Regarding your dating history, do you think it's typical? I think men do the asking about 80% of the time, and the only reason for that is a social construct that places that expectation on men. This site is full of comments from women clearly stating that women want men as much as men want women. Women may handle being single better than men, but if they do that's not because men want women more and therefore should invest more commensurate with their desire, but rather because women seem to be better at getting their emotional needs met through friends than men are. So men more often pursue women. That's not etched in stone anywhere, and your experience shows that, but it's very common that the man ask and it's generally expected. So if he who asks, pays, the he will pay the vast majority of the time.
No, I don't think 4/4 is typical. Eighty percent could be accurate, I don't know. Given that males pursue females throughout most of the animal kingdom, I am not ready to write it off as a social construct for humans. I recognize the expectation but also believe that many of you want to go after the women you choose. As some women know, if they never do the asking, their only choices are those presented to them--if any. If they have crummy choices or no choices, that's not the askers' fault.
Quote:
In your neighbor example, what if some families were always expected to ask other families over, at least early on? What if a significant % of the families who wait to be invited places and paid for thought it odd that the families who were expected to invite and pay sometimes felt like that was out of round somehow? What if the families accustomed to getting invitations called those families expected to do the inviting and expected to pay for the night cheap or losers because they wouldn't just pony up? Wouldn't that seem weird? It would to me. It does, in fact.
It is. After a barbecue or two, if I'm not getting an invitation back or a reciprocal gesture of some sort, I don't invite them over anymore. It continually baffles me when people think there's a completely different set of manners when potential sex is involved.
Location: Huntersville/Charlotte, NC and Washington, DC
26,700 posts, read 41,715,076 times
Reputation: 41376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterflyfish
I appreciate your honesty, The Dissenter. Thank you for sharing your truth, even while knowing it would be unpopular. In my opinion, it's a more common view than many people are willing to admit. If a man likes a woman, he will not mind paying. If a man asks his date to pay or go dutch, he isn't serious about her. That's the bottom line and it coincides with my dating experience.
And if I offer or insist on paying while on a date, it is my non-verbal way of letting you know that there won't be a second date.
I know we aren't friends but I appreciate this. I know my opinions aren't popular or normal, but my motto is where is the fun in being popular or normal? I only learned recently due to this forum that when a girl offers to pay her share on the first date means don't even bother asking for a second date. I actually in a way appreciate this subtle way of rejection. I just think it's bad enough I have to bare my heart in dating, even worse most the time I have to bare my wallet.
I know we aren't friends but I appreciate this. I know my opinions aren't popular or normal, but my motto is where is the fun in being popular or normal? I only learned recently due to this forum that when a girl offers to pay her share on the first date means don't even bother asking for a second date. I actually in a way appreciate this subtle way of rejection. I just think it's bad enough I have to bare my heart in dating, even worse most the time I have to bare my wallet.
I only learned recently due to this forum that when a girl offers to pay her share on the first date means don't even bother asking for a second date. I actually in a way appreciate this subtle way of rejection
Not always!! If I am able to (he hasn't already paid while I'm in the restroom or whatever) I always offer. If I like the guy and he says "no thank you" then I drop it. If I don't like him and he says "no thank you" then I will insist again. That's the key.
And on a different note, I HAVE actually paid for a first date before when I didn't do the asking. I got to the bar on time to see a message that he was running 10 late. Perhaps it was bad manners of me but I felt awkward just sitting there so I got a glass of wine, opened a tab, and just put all our drinks on it. It didn't end up working out (it was actually pretty awful) but hey, that's how it goes.
To all the people saying that a failed date doesn't help further their goal of finding a relationship, I say phooey! One more potential mate crossed off the list and hopefully a lesson learned.
Location: Huntersville/Charlotte, NC and Washington, DC
26,700 posts, read 41,715,076 times
Reputation: 41376
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMfan
Not always!! If I am able to (he hasn't already paid while I'm in the restroom or whatever) I always offer. If I like the guy and he says "no thank you" then I drop it. If I don't like him and he says "no thank you" then I will insist again. That's the key.
And on a different note, I HAVE actually paid for a first date before when I didn't do the asking. I got to the bar on time to see a message that he was running 10 late. Perhaps it was bad manners of me but I felt awkward just sitting there so I got a glass of wine, opened a tab, and just put all our drinks on it. It didn't end up working out (it was actually pretty awful) but hey, that's how it goes.
To all the people saying that a failed date doesn't help further their goal of finding a relationship, I say phooey! One more potential mate crossed off the list and hopefully a lesson learned.
Okay in fairness, I did have a date who paid her own share and actually reached out to me for a second date. I wasn't interested in her however.
Weren't you the one not long ago, talking about "testing" a guy on if he accepts your offer to pay, and if he accepts he's failed "the test"?
Nope. I offer to pay my half most of the time unless he pays so quickly that I don't get a chance to. If he says "No, that's ok", I don't insist on paying my half but otherwise, I pay. It's not a test. Some women offer to pay half to be polite or because they just want to, but you shouldn't assume that it means she's not interested in you if she offers.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I only learned recently due to this forum that when a girl offers to pay her share on the first date means don't even bother asking for a second date. I actually in a way appreciate this subtle way of rejection. I just think it's bad enough I have to bare my heart in dating, even worse most the time I have to bare my wallet.
